Endnu et Bill starr bidrag - Enjoy!

[heliotropen]

Jeg læste lige Squatfathers glimrende fullbody forslag til Blackice:

http://www.motion-online.dk/fora/index.php?showtopic=41085

Og nu så mange viser sig at have interesse i den fantastiske Bill Star, vil jeg selvfølgelig også gerne bidrage; jeg ved ikke om den her har været rigtigt oppe før; men jeg har selv tildigere været inde på et forløb inspirreret af selvsamme her: http://www.motion-online.dk/fora/index.php...lbody&st=20

Der er tale om et program som Animal mass (Matt Reynolds - gutten bag DUAL FACTOR HYPERTROPHY TRAINING) omtaler som "the best program for a wide range of athletes, from beginners to elite level athletes, women, men, anyone...." det er lavet af Bill Starr, og revideret af John Smith - here goes:

In my opinion, the best program for a wide range of athletes, from beginners to elite level athletes, women, men, anyone....

The 5X5:

Monday:

Olympic Squats 5x5 (same weight)

Benching 5x5 (flat, close grip or regular)(same weight)

JS Rows 5x5 (same weight)

Accessory (low volume triceps and abs)

Wednesday:

Olympic Squats 5x5 (reduced 15-20% from Monday) or Front Squats 5x5

Standing Military Press 5x5 (same weight)

Deadlifts 5x5 (same weight) (if you pull 2.5x bodyweight do 3x5)

Pull ups 5x5 (use weight if you need it)

Accessory (biceps and abs)

Friday:

Olympic Squats 5x5 (working up each set)

Benching 5x5 (flat or incline)(same weight)

Rows 5x5 (same weight)

Accessory (low volume triceps and abs)

The idea is simple: pick a weight you can do for 5 sets of 5, and if you complete all the sets and reps, then next time bump the weight up 5 or 10 pounds.

Before beginning the program it is important to establish 1 rep maxes for the squat, bench press, military press, and deadlift, and 5 rep maxes for the squat, bench press, rows, military press, and deadlifts.

The first week, it is important to begin very conservatively and prepare to set new 5 rep maxes on about the 4th-6th week, rather than the 1st or 2nd week. It will take some time for your body to grow accustomed to training this way, and in the beginning you’re gonna be sore as hell.

If you get all the sets and reps, then you increase the weight (5-10lbs) for the next week, and if not, you keep the weight the same.

Try and set new 5 rep maxes on weeks 4-6 for beginners , and weeks 3-4 for veterans and then move to a 3x3 for 2x per week.

Run the 3x3 for 2-3 weeks, drop the squatting frequency to 2x per week (or even every 4-5 days if you need the additional recovery), and try setting records on the 4th or 5th workout. (Also, weight increase are the important thing here).

Then cycle down to 1 set of 3 for 2 or 3 workouts, and maybe even go for a max single at the end.

So basically what you get is a 4-6 week prep phase, followed by a 3-5 week peaking phase.

One point – during the initial phase where 5x5 is being used you MUST stick to the required volume and frequency. Back off the weight if you have to, but always get in all 5 sets of 5.

__________________________________________________ _______________

Here's the original post by JS about it...

---5X5---

Monday: Squats, Benching, Rows

Weds: Squats, Military Presses, Deadlifts, Chins

Friday: Squats, Benching, Rows

Courtesy of bill starr bill starr, the greatest strength coach who ever lived, popularized this in the 70's with his great book, The Strongest Shall Survive, which was aimed at strength training for football. I believe he had essentually two different programs which both are 5 sets of 5. The first, which is more suitable for beginners, is to simply do 5 sets of 5 with similar weight jumps between each set so that your last set is your top weight. When you get all 5 on the last set, bump all your weights up 5 or 10lbs. Example for squat... 185 for 5, 225 for 5, 275 for 5, 315 for 5, 365 for 5. If you get 365 for 5, move all weights up. This is especially good for someone who is just learning a particular exercise like the squat, because the amount of practice with light but increasing weights is a good way to practice form.

For more advanced lifters, he advocated a warmup, then 5 sets of 5 with a set weight. For example, the same athlete used in the other example may do 135 for 5, 185 for 5, 225 for 3, 275 for 2, 315 for 1, then 350 for 5 sets of 5. When successfull with all 25 reps at 350lbs, bump the weight up the next workout by 5 or 10lbs.

This is not outdated, and is a good program for gaining strength. Many elite athletes still use it during at least part of the year. I in fact do 5 sets of 5 on squatting for 4 weeks as part of an 8 or 10 week training cycle. Personally, i do it 3 times a week, but most people will probably make better progress doing it 2 times per week, or even doing version 1 once a week, and version 2 once a week.

In any event i described a system in a post a while back that goes something like this:

Monday use the heaviest weight you can for all 5 sets (same weight each set)---- in other words when you get all 5 sets of 5 reps up the weight (most workouts you will get 3 or 4 sets of 5- and maybe your last one will be for 3 or 4 reps)

Wednesday use 10-20% less weight- in other words if you used 200lbs on monday use 160-180lbs on wednesday- actual amount depending on your recovery

Friday work up to a max set of 5-

In other words lets say that your best ever set of 5 is 215lbs and you used 200lbs on monday for 5 sets and 170lbs on wednesday. On friday your workout might be like this 95 for 5 135 for 5 175 for 5 200 for 5 then attempt 220 for your last set of 5.

This tends to work better as a long term program than doing the same thing 3 times a week. On exercises where you only do them once a week like deadlift you can just do the 5 sets of 5 like i described. On monday on exercises that you are only doing twice (rows) you could do both exercises like the monday workout or lighten one of them depending on your recovery ability. Be conservative with the weight when you start- that is important.

Also i have used this program VERY often with athletes and it IS result producing. However many of your gains will show up after you use it for 4-6 weeks and you switch to training a bit less frequently and lower the reps and volume. However this is one program i have had a LOT of success with. In fact i rarely if ever use it with athletes who are at the top of their weight class because it causes too much weight gain unless you severely restrict your food.

__________________________________________________ ______________

Here's how to periodize and peak with the 5x5 program....

"i do squats only. however i also do alot of other pulling motions off the floor, and these also work the legs. as far as squats monday 5 sets of five with a set weight wendsday, 5 sets of five with a weight that is 10-15% less than monday friday, work up with sets of five, going for your best set of five heres an example of how we do this...

lets say a person has a previous best of 5 sets of five weight with 300lbs, and has done one set of five with 325lbs for this person i may start with mondays weight of 285lbs, wendsdays weight of 255lbs, and on friday work up to a set of five with 310lbs, however if this person never trained this way before i would be much more conservative, more on that later then make small jumps each week, maybe week 2 use 295, 260, and 320 for the three workouts, week three use maybe 305, 265, and 330...and so on.

however keep this in mind, if on monday you cannot do all five sets of five keep the weight the same the next week, and on friday if you fail on a weight you choose keep the weight the same the next week

now, heres a few more hints, if you are not use to this sort of training and know you are gonna be sore as hell the first couple weeks, simply start more conservatively with the weight. if you are use to this sort of training, you can be a bit more agrressive from the start.

also as the weeks go by, dont increase wensdays workout as much as the other two. also some people are able to handle a heavier wensday workout than others. i have had athletes who have reacted best if wensdays workout was only 5% less than mondays weight. i have seen others who needed 25% reduction, however the average seems to be 10-15%, maybe if your new to this training start with 25% reduction then next time try 10-15% reduction.

with people new to this program i usually use it for 6-7 weeks, because we start more conservatively and it takes longer to get the benefits. with people who have done it before i generally go with 4 weeks at a time and go with setting records on monday and friday of week 3, week 4 is to try even more weight if week 3 was succesful, if it wasnt, then try record weights again. after this routine is over, we drop the frequency to about two workouts a week or even a bit less , and drop volume usually to 3 sets of 3.

the first week, we use the same weight as on the last monday of the 5 sets of five workout. this helps with recuperation. then, as in before we add weight each workout, this time aiming to break records on the fourth or fifth 3 sets of 3 workout.

sometimes we cycle on down to 1 set of three for two or three workouts, other times we have an offloading week then start with the five sets of five again.

i proably left some things out, i always seem to. however, although there are other programs that i am sure are effective, i have used alot of leg training programs and this one i know works, i have used this routine on probably over 100 athletes with success all around. it is not unusual for an athlete to increase their leg strength 100lbs in the full squat in the first six months i work with them.

now i know of other people who have tried this program on my recomendation in the track and field world, and not have the success i have had. however they always make the same mistakes, either starting on week one with max weights and not taking a week or two or even three to work up to max weights, OR, they start in on the 3 sets of 3 with too heavy a weight... you have to adjust the volume. dont be in too much of a hurry.

be content to set records on week 3, not week 1. well thats about it, but if your patient and do it right, it will be effective."....wow that was a mouthful ok, that is what i was talking about, although in that post i didnt explain a couple of things that i would like to now.

as you see from reading that, were talking about 4-6 weeks basically of a prep phase, and 3-5 weeks of a peaking phase, so its not really an 8 week program all the time. every time i write this program out, its a bit different, thats because its not a set in stone thing, but an example of a training philosophy... and it can and is altered in the details for individuals. however, there is one important point concerning what can be altered and still get the desired effects.

during the initial phase where 5 sets of 5 are used, you must stick to the written workout frequency and volume. no matter what, do the required sets 3 times a week. if you feel like your really dieing, then cut the weight back. but in the initial portion, the volume and frequency shouldnt be messed with. now, when you go to the sets of 3, you need to begin with the weight specified, and go up each workout, and you should be fairly rested each workout.

that means that you MAY be able to squat 2 times a week at this point, however you may need to squat once every 4 or 5 days, depends on the individual. also, 3 sets of 3 is a good volume for the first week of this phase, but often people react better to 2 or even one top set per workout during the second, third, or 4th weeks of this phase. during this phase, its the opposite of the first phase, he weight increases are the important thing.

take enough rest between workouts and cut the workout volume enough to assure that you are recovered enough to raise the weight. hope this clarifies a bit. the 3 day a week program i wrote was an example of a basic 3 day a week program for a relative beginner. i meant it to be done without any other assistance work except maybe abs. of course, an advanced lifter would probably not do that workout exactly as written.

as far as the "peaking" part of the squat program, i usually use this with shot-putters and athletes like that, and dont neccessarily do it with a program like the 3 day a week program, although if you were doing that and wanted to "peak" a particular exercise, it would work.

basically, if you are not going to try to peak strength, you need to be more carefull when doing the 5 sets of 5 three days a weeek, and not get the weights up so heavy that you start to overtrain... a more gradual increase in weighs is called for, and you must use a little common sense and not push so hard you need rest... when trying to peak you just push and keep pushing on the last couple of weeks of the 5 by 5... you push right to the brink ov overtraining basically, then back the volume and frequency off with the sets of 3.

Enjoy the pain

M.V.H

Helio

[ptpoul]

Bill Starr holder max. Programmet du beskriver der er også rigtigt fremragende, har selv kørt noget lignende med mit livs gains til følge af det.

Dog skal det siges at det du anbefaler ikke er et bill starr program ud fra de artikler og bøger jeg har læst af ham.

Det kan være han har anbefalet noget lignende det der står (jeg har bare ikke set det nogen steder), men han har også mange andre bud på hvordan man skal strukturere sin træning.

[Crawdaddy]

Er det et program at falde i svime over?

Det skal siges at jeg HAR prøvet det over flere omgang for nogle år tilbage.

[kahlua-kalv]

Er det et program at falde i svime over?

Det skal siges at jeg HAR prøvet det over flere omgang for nogle år tilbage.

hvis du har kørt det mange gange, må det da ha' virket ok. Hvor meget gik du frem?

[ptpoul]

Er det et program at falde i svime over?

Det skal siges at jeg HAR prøvet det over flere omgang for nogle år tilbage.

Jeg har aldrig haft så gode gains, som da jeg kørte det. Squats tre gange om ugen!

Det er heller ikke svært at modificere så man kan bruge det til styrkeløft.

[Crawdaddy]

hvis du har kørt det mange gange, må det da ha' virket ok. Hvor meget gik du frem?

Jeg husker kun at gå en smule op i squat. I bænk og DL skete der ikke noget videre. Grunden til at det blev kørt over flere omgange, er at jeg dengang ikke havde kendskab til andre programmer udover hans version af GVT, som, efter min mening, bras......det var før der var så meget af den slags på nettet

PT> 3xsquat om ugen kan køres bedre i form af en 10-6-3, som er 5x5 langt overlegen.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Crawdaddy

[ptpoul]

Jeg husker kun at gå en smule op i squat. I bænk og DL skete der ikke noget videre. Grunden til at det blev kørt over flere omgange, er at jeg dengang ikke havde kendskab til andre programmer udover hans version af GVT, som, efter min mening, bras......det var før der var så meget af den slags på nettet

PT> 3xsquat om ugen kan køres bedre i form af en 10-6-3, som er 5x5 langt overlegen.

I Bill starr's bog er et af de mere avancerede programmer netop med 10reppere 6 og 3 reppere.

Bill Starr har altid ret!!!

[kahlua-kalv]

I Bill starr's bog er et af de mere avancerede programmer netop med 10reppere 6 og 3 reppere.

Bill Starr har altid ret!!!

som:

3*10

5*6

10*3

eller?

[heliotropen]

som:

3*10

5*6

10*3

eller?

Ja de taler om reps; 10,6,3 - 10 reps + 6reps + 3 reps (ikke nødvendigvis kun et sæt af hvert, dog næppe 18 sæt LOL). - Du kan kikke i Holstings logbog, mener han på et tidspunkt snakkede om 10,6,3... - Og lig osse lige mærke til der snakkes om squatten!!!

Bill Starrs anbefaler osse en løsning(for hypertrofi selvføgelig), med at lave et let sæt efter worksættene, hvor man pumper godt igennem; (50% af 1RM over 10 reps, såvidt jeg husker) -

M.V.H

Helio

Edited September 26, 2007 by heliotropen

[ptpoul]

Jeg har ikke hans bog hjemme (Guarden har lånt den), men kan kun anbefale at man køber den!

www.k3k.de er et fint sted at købe den i Europa.

Lige en lille pointe. Mange mennekser der ikke har succes med traditionelle bodybuilding metoder vil vokse rigtigt godt på Starr's foreskrifter. Men det er programmer der fokuserer på funktionel hypertrofi. Så det er et kompromis imellem styrke og masse tilgang, der er det oplagte resultat af sådan træning.

Edited September 26, 2007 by ptpoul

[Hr.Kirchebrandt]

1 x 8 af tredje sæts vægt.

Ja de taler om reps; 10,6,3 - 10 reps + 6reps + 3 reps (ikke nødvendigvis kun et sæt af hvert, dog næppe 18 sæt LOL). - Du kan kikke i Holstings logbog, mener han på et tidspunkt snakkede om 10,6,3... - Og lig osse lige mærke til der snakkes om squatten!!!

Bill Starrs anbefaler osse en løsning(for hypertrofi selvføgelig), med at lave et let sæt efter worksættene, hvor man pumper godt igennem; (50% af 1RM over 10 reps, såvidt jeg husker) -

M.V.H

Helio

[heliotropen]

men kan kun anbefale at man køber den!

Helt enig, - det er klart en af de bedre jeg har læst..

1 x 8 af tredje sæts vægt.

Fantastisk :4thumbup: må indrømme jeg ikke lige gad at flå den ned fra hylden og slå op, hvilket jeg nok snart burde gøre, den er ved at være godt støvet!

M.V.H

Helio

[Francis]

Mener et af hans mere avancerede programmer var det han kaldte total tonnage, hvor man den ene dag kørte 5x10r, den næste dag 5x5r og den sidste 5x3r. Pointen var så at man hver træningssession lagde alle reps og vægt sammen til en total tonnage, og pointen var så at slå den i næste træningssession. altså, en tonnage for 1o-repperne, en for 5- og en for 3-repperne. Mener han anbefalede at sprede det over 11-14 dage i stedet for den sædvanlige ugebasis. Men igen, det er fra fri hukommelse, så nogle detajler mangler nok..

(tænkte på om det måske var det i tænkte på med 10,6,3 )

[MamboMads]

Jeg har ikke hans bog hjemme (Guarden har lånt den), men kan kun anbefale at man køber den!

www.k3k.de er et fint sted at købe den i Europa.

Lige en lille pointe. Mange mennekser der ikke har succes med traditionelle bodybuilding metoder vil vokse rigtigt godt på Starr's foreskrifter. Men det er programmer der fokuserer på funktionel hypertrofi. Så det er et kompromis imellem styrke og masse tilgang, der er det oplagte resultat af sådan træning.

Jeg HADER den hjemmeside, jeg forstår ingenting af den..

Er det umuligt at få den i Danmark? Ellers bliver det bare ironmind.

[heliotropen]

Mener et af hans mere avancerede programmer var det han kaldte total tonnage, hvor man den ene dag kørte 5x10r, den næste dag 5x5r og den sidste 5x3r. Pointen var så at man hver træningssession lagde alle reps og vægt sammen til en total tonnage, og pointen var så at slå den i næste træningssession. altså, en tonnage for 1o-repperne, en for 5- og en for 3-repperne. Mener han anbefalede at sprede det over 11-14 dage i stedet for den sædvanlige ugebasis. Men igen, det er fra fri hukommelse, så nogle detajler mangler nok..

(tænkte på om det måske var det i tænkte på med 10,6,3 )

Yes, du har ret, jeg skulle selv lige have fem-øren til at falde på plads; "timed total tonnage" right?, det er virkelig ledt, fordi man starter med en vægt man kun LIGE kan få det antal reps man skal i første sæt; og så tilpasser man hele tiden vægten så man også kun LIGE får den i næste (det er næsten umuligt ikke at misse bare et par stykker når man kommer frem) osv. alle 5 sæt igennem. Jeg mener også at huske man timer sættene, så man ikke må bruge mere tid end sidste gang på at overgå den samlede tornnage fra sidst (hvis jeg husker forkert så beklager jeg, kan slå det op når jeg kommer hjem.).... det er så ondt - Den var faktisk fed lige at få frem Francis, :4thumbup: - den skal jeg klart ha en omgang af igen, når jeg er ovre min kolde lungebetændelse.

M.V.H

Helio

[GettingHuge]

Hvad betyder det der 'timed total tonnage' ?

Kan i ikk lige komme med et eksempel på hvordan en træning kunne se ud

[Torben F.]

Har Bill Starr givet nogle foreskrifter for procenter på arbejdssættene op til den tunge 5´er?

[Torben F.]

Har Bill Starr givet nogle foreskrifter for procenter på arbejdssættene op til den tunge 5´er?

Bump :)

[Torben F.]

Bump :)

Fandt selv en gammel tråd, hvor Thomas J svarer på det. Han skriver:

Bill Starr anbefaler at begynder anvender 5 x 5 systemet, ved at man f.eks laver følgende:

1 sæt x 5 reps med 40 % af 1RM

1 sæt x 5 reps med 50 % af 1RM

1 sæt x 5 reps med 60 % af 1RM

1 sæt x 5 reps med 70 % af 1RM

1 sæt x 5 reps med 85 % af 1RM

[BLACKICE]

Jeg vil luge "bumpe" med at informere om at jeg er på 7 uge af det Bill Starr program SquatFather byggede til mig. Pt tror jeg godt jeg tør sige at det pt er det bedste program jeg har kørt i min trænings karriere. De gains jeg har opnået,både på vægten og styrken er pt næsten uvirkelige. Man kan mene at 7 uger er for kort tid at udtale sig. Men som eksempel fejlede jeg i uge 3 , i bænkpres , hvor jeg skulle have haft 5 rep med 112,5 kg. Jeg fik 4. Igår (uge 7) fik jeg 5 rep med 117,5kg i bænkpres. Plus jeg er stoppet med kreatin i den mellemliggende periode.

Mit Dødløft max for 7 uger siden, er 237,5kg. Igår reppede jeg 3 gange med 217,5kg, og mandagen før, fik jeg 5 rep med 207,5kg. Det er naturligvis svært at sammenligne, men det burde dog være tydeligt at noget sker.

[Hr.Kirchebrandt]

LIge for at hyle med ulvene,

Jeg kører på 5. uge med mit Bill Starr program. Jeg har valgt den klassiske version (squat, bænk BOR), og har afsat perioden op til sommerferien med dette her program. Vi får se, hvordan det går.

Umiddelbart virker det godt, især fordi jeg træner MMA ved siden af, og så er den relative lave volumen lækker, da jeg kan nå at restituere fra begge træningsformer.

Hr. K

[Torben F.]

LIge for at hyle med ulvene,

Jeg kører på 5. uge med mit Bill Starr program. Jeg har valgt den klassiske version (squat, bænk BOR), og har afsat perioden op til sommerferien med dette her program. Vi får se, hvordan det går.

Umiddelbart virker det godt, især fordi jeg træner MMA ved siden af, og så er den relative lave volumen lækker, da jeg kan nå at restituere fra begge træningsformer.

Hr. K

Har du ikke et link til den klassiske version? - jeg har ledt, men kan simpelthen ikke finde det. :)

[teddy]

Har du ikke et link til den klassiske version? - jeg har ledt, men kan simpelthen ikke finde det. :)

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_.../Linear_5x5.htm

[Torben F.]

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_.../Linear_5x5.htm

Yes, der var den. Thx :)