Overhead pressing information.

[Athlete X]

Question 1

For coach X,

The other day you had posted that overhead movements like, and this is an assumption, jerk press and military were a bad thing. I was taught differently and I was wondering what the reasoning behind this idea is. I am a high school track and field and football coach...I train the shoulders using jerk press and cuff complex as auxillaries, if this is wrong, I would like to know.

Thanks

Answer 1

Dude, I have answered this question already in a previous post. If the individuals who taught you that pressing overhead was great then ask them thelast time they were in a cadavear lab. I understand that overhead pressing has the highest activation of all the cuff muscles but it is also the greatest irratiant and has the highest stressful forces to the shoulder joint itself. Now you should know that once you change structure, you change function. When any athlete presses overhead you take a risk and you must ask yourself is the risk worth the benefit(you should do that with any exercise you choose). ORTHOPEDICALLY speaking as the bar travels overhead you jam the head of the humerus up into the acromin, which creates impingement(as does any movement that causes the bicep to move closer to the head. Let me define shoulder impingement for all you thickheaded people out there(probably most of you are olympic based in your training knowledge and we are not creating elite weight lifters). Impingment involves a mechanical compression of the supraspinatus tendon, subacromial bursa, and the long head of the biceps tendon, all which are located under the coracoacromial arch. This compression is due to a decrease in space under said arch. Repetitive compression leads to irritation and inflammation of these structures. Shoulder impingement is also closely related to instability. Athletes who are involved in overhead ativities often exhibit hypermobility and capsular laxity. Prolonged inflammation causes decreasesd muscular efficiency and can also lend itself to one other major problem, a ruptured supraspinatus or biceps tendon. In short, shoulder impingement compresses all the soft tissue structures under the coracoacromial arch during HUMERAL ELEVATION! It also takes you out of the scapular plain and creates structural imbalances. Now ask the individuals who taught you when was the last time they were in a cadaver lab. As a strength coach you better have a working knowledge of orthopedics and rehab. I am now done trying to help people make their programs orthopedically sound, so go ahead and be lod-school, which is an excuse for being DUMB!

Question 2

X and 62,

You guys made few comments regarding the shoulder, overhead pressing and orthopedically sound programs. Could you expound on that for the specific case of the shoulder?

Answer 2

Dude, How many times have you been to a cadaver lab? Yesterday was my 10th time(at least). Why? Because number 1 I desire knowledge and number 2 it is one thing to prescribe an exercise it is totally another thing to understand how it affects the body and how the body executes that said movement. The other day was the best dissection of the shoulder i have ever witnessed. There exsists VERY little room for error in that complex and as a strength coach i need to do a cost/benefit analysis of every exercise i choose. I know overhead pressing is the greatest activator of the entire cuff BUT it is also the most stressful and greatest irratant to the shoulder itself! I was barely able to get my pinky finger into the groove where the suparspinatus passes through! Overhead movements jam the head of the humerus right up into the acromin and is an open invitation to cuff problems(irratation), bursitis, impingement(of which i have had surgery for already and am in the process of having additional surgery on that shoulder from wear and tear) and a host of other shoulder issues. Knowing all this why would i have my athletes press overhead and put them in a compromised position? There are a thousand other ways to strengthen that area without the risks of trouble. Also note we are not overhead athletes. I am convinced that only dumbass strength coaches ask their athletes to do so cause they don't know any better. How many strength coaches do you know that take the time to visit or find a way to expand their knowledge by doing what we did the other day? I'll answer for you, NOT MANY!!! Also you should take the time to speak with your team orthopod, they are a wealth of knowledge and at some point in time you better understand the surgeries your athletes will undergo, cause you are the one who has to modify their program! Trouble is too many strength coaches don't take the time either because they are winning and believe they are GODS or they are just plain lazy and don't wish to increase their knowlegde!Ask a strength coach sometime to indentify or know the three types of impingement and see how many can answer.

[ptpoul]

Jeg synes det er en rigtigt spændende post, man skal bare også huske på at proc coracoideus' anatomiske udformning varierer voldsomt fra individ til individ og at hel skulderbladets fukltion er at skabe en dynamisk platform for skulderleddets bevægelser. Summa sumarum, fungere skulderbladet korrekt og har man god thorachal mobilitet er skulderproblemer som følge af overhead work langt mindre hyppige. Jeg gætter på det er derfor vægtløftere har relativt få skulderproblemer. Mange af deres øvelser forbedrer thoracal mobilitet og serratus/rhomboideus funktion væsentligt.

I de du quoter virker det til at impingement og deraf fælgende irritation er uundgåeligt, det er noget af forsimpling/radikal holdning at have.

Jeg er dog ganske enig i deres betragtninger, man skal tænke sig om inden man uhæmmet kører 10x10 i skulderpres.

Rigtigt informativt oplæg, rart med noget info på ganske højt niveau!!

Edited January 16, 2009 by ptpoul

[RuneB]

"man skal bare også huske på at proc coracoideus' anatomiske udformning varierer voldsomt fra individ til individ og at hel skulderbladets funktion er at skabe en dynamisk platform for skulderleddets bevægelser. Summa sumarum, fungere skulderbladet korrekt og har man god thorachal mobilitet er skulderproblemer som følge af overhead work langt mindre hyppige. Jeg gætter på det er derfor vægtløftere har relativt få skulderproblemer. Mange af deres øvelser forbedrer thoracal mobilitet og serratus/rhomboideus funktion væsentligt".

Lyder fornuftigt. Vel også trap 3 funktion. Vægtløfter push presser vel meget mere i forhold til militarie press. måske er top position ikke problemet hvis man løfter skuldrene med op (shrugger). Måske er problemet vejen der op?

Jeg har set en artikel fra crossfits hjemmeside der beskrev hvorfor der netop var plads i skulderledet i toppen hvis man flyttede skuldrene med op. Jeg har også selv sat et par folk til at lave skulderpress med supraspinatus problemer ved bænk, og hvis de huskede at shrug i top position hjalp det faktisk, mens at det var tydeligt at de kunne mærke det i skulderene uden shrug. Der slår mig også at ham der skriver ikke forklar eller kommenter forskelle i press teknikker eller press former. Han for dog nævnt at militarie er en fremragende rotator øvelse, hvilket er meget i tråd med hvad jeg har læst af Mark Riptoe og Pawel. Jeg aner ærligt talt ikke til eller fra. Synes det er et vanvittigt svært område.

Kunne være nice med en endnu bedre artikel på området... anyone? for jeg synes ikke artiklen er særligt god... eller gennemført mere et dårlig argumenteret korstog...han mangler at komme i dybden.

Edited January 17, 2009 by RuneB

[incognito]

jeg synes måske vedkommende udtaler sig lige lovligt konklusivt om tingene...

Når man fører armen op, fører det ikke 100% sikkert til impingement, men det øger risikoen for impingement problemer. Når man udtaler sig så konklusivt, så forplumrer man vandende og dogmatiserer ting helt unødvendigt....

I overhead presses er skulderen i en sårbar stilling, men jeg synes situationen er parallel til de 100-vis af squat tråde (dybt eller ej) der har været herinde. Det er en stilling/øvelse, som stiller nogle specielle krav til stabilitet og/eller fleksibilitet. Disse krav kan være så store at det ikke kan betale sig for den almindelige atlet (eller motionist?) at man som udgangspunkt ikke skal/kan bruge den omtalte øvelse FØR den tilstrækkelige stabilitet og/eller fleksibilitet er på plads

Jeg er dog enig i at overhead presses på ingen måde er nødvendige for langt de fleste sportsfolk...

[RuneB]

Her er lidt fra T-nation - http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_articl...e_myths_part_ii

Adage #7: You should avoid overhead pressing.

If this is the case, I guess I better not store anything on the top shelf, huh? Okay, in all seriousness, we need to understand the rationale behind such an assertion before we can get into all the finer subtleties. There are two broad camps: those who say "you just don’t need it" and those who insist that "it’s dangerous."

In the former case, the fundamental rationale is essentially one of training economy. If you have a limited amount of time to spend in the gym, and a limited recovery capacity, you need to choose the exercises that will give you the most bang for your training buck without exceeding your body’s capacity to recovery. Many insist that one simply doesn’t need direct "shoulder work" (and I put that in parentheses because I abhor body part training) simply because the deltoids receive adequate stimulus from horizontal pressing (benches), and pulling (rows), and vertical pulling (pull-ups/pulldowns). These folks insist that at the very most, you need a few supplemental sets of lateral raises to target the middle head of the deltoid, and with that completed, you can sit back and wait for your cannonball delts to emerge.

Personally, though, I view recovery as systemic more than muscle-specific, so I examine how my overall volume is distributed and then make that determination. In other words, trainees with better recovery capabilities can afford to do this extra volume. Moreover, I look to consider if I need more biomechanical balance in my programming; will some overhead pressing help to "cancel out" some vertical pulling I’m doing?

Finally, I look at the demands of the athlete’s sport or the bodybuilder’s goals; if an athlete needs to be strong overhead (e.g. basketball player) or a bodybuilder needs to bring up his taters, I’m going to incorporate overhead pressing at the expense of something else. Ever since I wrote Cracking the Rotator Cuff Conundrum, I’ve been inundated with emails from frustrated trainees with bum shoulders. You know what the vast majority of them share in common? Poor balance in programming, mostly as a result of insisting that they need to have a separate day just for shoulders.

Next, we have the "it’s dangerous" camp standing on their soapboxes trying to frighten us all off with a gross generalization. The basis for this allegation is that overhead pressing is dangerous because when you move with the humerus abducted/flexed past 90 degrees (upper arm parallel with the floor), you’re compromising the subacromial space. The tendons of the rotator cuff pass through this space, and IF the rotator cuff is weak and/or the scapula is anteriorly tilted, the space is limited to the point that the tendons will become impinged (hence the term external impingement) between the humeral head and the glenoid fossa (shoulder socket) of the scapula.

Did you notice the big, bold "if?" For those with normal positioning of the scapulae and strong, healthy rotator cuffs that can depress the humeral head effectively, there is absolutely no need to avoid overhead pressing out of fear of injury, as there will be sufficient room for the tendons to pass through this space without irritation. Performing the movements in the scapular plane can further reduce the likelihood of subacromial impingement. This plane allows for improved joint surface conformity; appropriate rotator cuff alignment, which leads to increased activity of the infraspinatus and teres minor in stabilization of the humeral head (4,7,8), and minimized stress on the inferior glenohumeral ligament.(9) The scapular plane is located about 30 degrees anterior of the frontal plane. In other words, raise your arm as if you were about to start a rep on the pec deck, and then do 1/3 of cross-chest fly. One can also use a neutral grip to make overhead pressing with dumbbells more safe; this movement at the lower arm corresponds to external rotation of the humerus, which decreases the likelihood of subacromial impingement.(10)

Now, there are going to be a ton of individuals who I don’t feel should be overhead pressing. Incidentally, almost all these trainees are outstanding candidates for the programs Mike Robertson and I outlined in Neanderthal No More IV and V. The anteriorly tilted position of the scapulae and internally rotated humeri are problematic in themselves, but when you consider that these postural issues correspond to altered length-tension relationships, and therefore weakness of crucial scapular stabilizers and rotator cuff muscles, overhead pressing is the last thing that these individuals need to consider. In fact, those who are already experiencing shoulder pain shouldn’t even be doing back squats or good mornings until they get these issues resolved.

So, to summarize, overhead pressing is cool if a) your shoulder girdles are healthy and strong, B) it can be incorporated without messing up structural balance in your programming, c) your sport/weaknesses necessitate its inclusion, and d) you’re factoring it in to your overall volume equation. And, you can potentially make it even cooler if you’re pressing in the scapular plane with a neutral grip.

Her er jeg lidt mere enig... og så kan man jo som træner spørge sig selv om

1. Ikke stortset alle ens kunder har posturial dysfunktioner i et eller andet led...

2. Tester jeg grundigt nok og ved jeg nok omkring hvordan jeg fikser dysfunktioner

3. Er min programmer god nok til at opretholde normale funktion, eller skaber jeg dysfunktioner.

Jeg synes ihvertfald jeg ender med at finde ud af at nu klogere jeg bliver på de stor løft, nu mere ser jeg dysfunktioner i bevægeapparetet hos de individer jeg træner. Og at jeg faktisk bliver nødtil at bevæge mig væk fra dem igen... Derfor kan jeg også godt forstå de folk der ikke anbefaler full squats og overhead pressing. Skal man squat og overhead press uden en meget kompentent træner og er vi/du kompetent nok.

[Tobias]

kunne man ikke overveje at skifte military press ud med en front press med håndvægte?

Ved at starte med håndfladerne væk fra kroppen og under presset opad rotere håndflderne mod hinanden vil man så ikke orientere tuburculum major på humerus på en sådan måde (posteriort) at den kommer mindst mulig i karambolage med acromion? og derved mindste rsisikoen for impingemet af bursa subacromialis, bicep longum senen og supraspinatussenen.

Tobias

[eatsam]

Bill Star skriver i artiklen "Overhead is Rising" (fra CrossFit Journal) bl.a. :

5. Protects rotator cuffs

The area of the back that get the most sore is usually

the middle or right over his shoulder blades. Gaining

and maintaining strength in this latter area is extremely

beneficial since this is where the muscles that constitute

the rotator cuffs are located. Back when the overhead

press was the primary upper body exercise, rotator cuff

injuries were unheard of. We didn’t even know there

were such muscles. But when the bench press replaced

the overhead press and the lifters failed to do specific

work on their upper backs and therefore the rotator cuffs,

injury rates soared for those small but critical muscles.

In this regard, I should add that the very best way to

rebuild a slightly damaged rotator cuff is by doing overhead

presses. Start with dumbells, gradually work up to

the barbell and proceed from there. It takes a bit of time,

but eventually you will be able to strengthen those small

muscles. It sure beats the alternative of surgery.

og

Correct form is absolutely key for all overhead exercises,

whose balance component requires a much higher skill

level and more practice than exercise performed closer

to the core of the body. For the record, the overhead

press is a safe exercise when done right. Those very few

who did sustain some type of lower back injury while

performing a heavy press did so because of leaning back

excessively. Some were able to lean so far backward

that the lift resembled a standing bench press. It goes

without saying that this outlandish maneuver should

be avoided, but the truth of the matter is, this move is

almost impossible to achieve unless it’s practiced for a

number of years.

A slight backward lean is acceptable, even beneficial in

helping to keep the bar over the base of power, yet in

most cases, the athlete has trouble bowing his back at

all. It’s not a natural move. I’ve never had any athlete hurt

his back doing an overhead press because of leaning too

far backward. The problem is getting them to bow their

backs in perfect timing and coordination with the drive

and rapid follow through.

In regards to injuries, the bench press ranks the highest

of all exercises in strength training, but no one has ever

suggested that this popular lift be removed from any

program. Ugly form is tolerated, even encouraged by

strength and sports coaches so that they can boast of

x-number of 300-pound benchers. Quite often, bad

technique is coupled with gross overtraining on the

bench and as a result, elbows, wrists, and shoulders pay

the price.

Altså kort sagt kan man vel blive enig om, at der er en risiko i alle øvelser. Når man ser på alle de gavnlige ting, der er i overhead er det da helt absurd at sidde og overanalysere en teoretisk risiko for at blive skadet, der alligevel er i samtlige ting man kan foretage med sin krop.

[Athlete X]

Bill Star skriver i artiklen "Overhead is Rising" (fra CrossFit Journal) bl.a. :

Altså kort sagt kan man vel blive enig om, at der er en risiko i alle øvelser. Når man ser på alle de gavnlige ting, der er i overhead er det da helt absurd at sidde og overanalysere en teoretisk risiko for at blive skadet, der alligevel er i samtlige ting man kan foretage med sin krop.

Hvad gavnligt for de fleste sportsfolk er der i at overhead presse?

[RuneB]

Jeg prøver...

Press situation for en lineman i amerikansk fodbold..

Vægtløfter der gerne vil forbedre deres jerk...

Overkrops træning til sprinter...

vil du høre nogen argumenter?

[Athlete X]

Press situation for en lineman i amerikansk fodbold..

Fail. Vi presser ikke modstanderen med armene over hovedet. Men med armene foran kroppen. Lolol.

Vægtløfter der gerne vil forbedre deres jerk...

Ja da. Men du ved jo udmærket godt det ikke er den type sportsfolk jeg hentyder til.

Overkrops træning til sprinter...

Charlie Francis vil være uenig. Desuden, mener ud ikke man kan skabe et par stærke shoulders uden overhead presses?

[Comedian]

Fail. Vi presser ikke modstanderen med armene over hovedet. Men med armene foran kroppen. Lolol.

... Men hvad nu hvis du gjorde?

Indrøm at der ville være lidt blær hvis du i din første NFL kamp fangede en 140 kg sort gut og smed ham op over hovedet...

[teddy]

Charlie Francis vil være uenig. Desuden, mener ud ikke man kan skabe et par stærke shoulders uden overhead presses?

ikk fordi jeg tvivler på han ved en masse, men nu er han jo langt fra den eneste coach eller expert. Og der er nok mange forskellige meninger om emnet.

[eatsam]

Overhead-styrke er vel en del af en generelt god form efter min mening. Det ville være meget misproportioneret ikke at kunne presse noget vertikalt, men kun horisontalt. Overheadtræning udfordrer jo hele kroppen fra tå til hoved og er ikke blot et udtryk for kraftudledningen i skuldrene. Posterior og core har jo enorm gavn af overhead-arbejde.

[Athlete X]

... Men hvad nu hvis du gjorde?

Indrøm at der ville være lidt blær hvis du i din første NFL kamp fangede en 140 kg sort gut og smed ham op over hovedet...

Med min højde ville dette sandsynligvis resultere i en solformørkelse. Og ja, dét ville være pænt fedt.

ikk fordi jeg tvivler på han ved en masse, men nu er han jo langt fra den eneste coach eller expert. Og der er nok mange forskellige meninger om emnet.

Ingen specifikke resistance exercises er nødvendige for en atlet.

Man kan sige; det er vigigt for en sprinter at have en stærk skuldermuskulatur.

Men ikke vigtigt at overhead presse. Kan en stærk skuldermuskulatur tilegnes uden overhead presses?

Overhead-styrke er vel en del af en generelt god form efter min mening.

Efter din mening. Men det er stadig ikke korrekt.

Det ville være meget misproportioneret ikke at kunne presse noget vertikalt, men kun horisontalt.

Fordi man ikke træner overhead presses betyder det sgu ikke man er en mongol til at føre armene over hovedet. Min mobilitet fejler sgu intet.

Overheadtræning udfordrer jo hele kroppen fra tå til hoved og er ikke blot et udtryk for kraftudledningen i skuldrene. Posterior og core har jo enorm gavn af overhead-arbejde.

Dine antagelser er forfejlede.

[teddy]

selvfølgelig kan man få en stærk skuldermuskulatur uden at overhead presse, men derfor kan du på baggrund af den ene coach ikke bare afvise alt som ikke værende korrekt

[Athlete X]

selvfølgelig kan man få en stærk skuldermuskulatur uden at overhead presse, men derfor kan du på baggrund af den ene coach ikke bare afvise alt som ikke værende korrekt

Helt enig. Der er mange veje til rom. Hovedreglen er: Abonnerer en træner religiøst på specifikke GPP means er han er idiot.

Udover det så er der stadig ingen grund til at overhead presse for en sprinter.

[teddy]

Helt enig. Der er mange veje til rom. Hovedreglen er: Abonnerer en træner religiøst på specifikke GPP means er han er idiot.

Udover det så er der stadig ingen grund til at overhead presse for en sprinter.

så er vi enige

[Dr. Mengele]

så er vi enige

Det var godt.

[RuneB]

Det er ikke "vigtigt" for sprinter at have stærke skuldre... skulderen er ikke nogen begræsnende faktor i nogen del af løbet... Men der er noget i forhold overkrops størrelse..at det er godt at have en del masse på overkroppen i relation til overkroppen på 100+60m... Jeg har læst noget biomekanik omkring det engang...men kan sku ikke huske forklaringen.

Overhead presses er bare en rigtigt god GGP træning for overkroppen... men langt fra afgørende... Stor neural aktivitering, stor hormonel respons, god træning i undgå posterior tilt af bækkenet. At modvirke posterior tilt er afgørende i sprint

Edited February 3, 2009 by RuneB

[RuneB]

Jeg prøver lige med en analyse omkring overkrops størrelse...

I accelerationsfasen og det oprejst løb:

På det sagital plan skulle det ikke være en fordel. Da det øger den overkroppens rotation fremad...hvor stor betydning det har aner jeg ikke.

Frontal og transversalt skal overkroppen modvirke den kraft svingbenet påvirker kroppen når sving benet bremses i slutningen af sving fasen.

- I accelerations fasen er det meget frontalt og transversal rotation i underkroppen, overkroppen skal stabilisere den rotation derfor er overkroppens størrelse en begrænsende faktor...

- I det oprejst løb kan en større overkrop kompensere for transversal og frontalt rotation. Optimalt set skulle de ved svingfasens afslutning være i neutral. Jeg kan se at nogen top sprinter alligevel bruger en lille smule rotation og for derved større skridt længde men langsommer kontakt tid. Teoretisk set skulle det ikke være en fordel... men det kan sikkert anvendes af mere kraftfuld sprinter.'

Jeg er god :D

edit:

Jeg skriver altså at det er størrelsen og ikke den power man udvikler for at kompenser for transversal og frontal rotation der er afgørende...det lyder ikke helt rigtigt..???

Edited February 3, 2009 by RuneB

[Athlete X]

Det er ikke "vigtigt" for sprinter at have stærke skuldre... skulderen er ikke nogen begræsnende faktor i nogen del af løbet...

Jesus Christ.

Skulder extension-flexion styrke er bestemmende for evnen til at stemple armene. Acceleration i et sprint begynder med arm-skulder action.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Athlete X

[Athlete X]

Overhead presses er bare en rigtigt god GGP træning for overkroppen... men langt fra afgørende... Stor neural aktivitering, stor hormonel respons, god træning i undgå posterior tilt af bækkenet. At modvirke posterior tilt er afgørende i sprint

Er sportsudøveren sund vil det sikkert ikke skade (tror jeg) at bruge overhead presses som et GPP mean for at styrke skuldermuskulaturen.

Men ligesom alt andet GPP ikke nødvendigt.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Athlete X

[KongKent]

Nu kommer motionisten så lige med et lille spørgsmål:

Hvis military, (seated) db press etc. er potentielt (mere) skadelige (end godt er), hvilke skulderøvelser er så bedre/mindre skadelige?

Der er jo ingen grund til at udsætte sig for større risiko end allerhøjst nødvendigt, og da slet ikke hvis der findes alternativer der rammer skuldrene lige så godt og med mindre skadespotentiale.

[Athlete X]

Nu kommer motionisten så lige med et lille spørgsmål:

Hvis military, (seated) db press etc. er potentielt (mere) skadelige (end godt er), hvilke skulderøvelser er så bedre/mindre skadelige?

Der er jo ingen grund til at udsætte sig for større risiko end allerhøjst nødvendigt, og da slet ikke hvis der findes alternativer der rammer skuldrene lige så godt og med mindre skadespotentiale.

Det skal siges at jeg intet ved omkring risikoen ved overhead presses. Jeg fremlagde blot hvad nogen i feltet mente.

ptpoul og incognito bidrog så yderligere og det lyder selvfølgelig ganske fornuftigt at hvis individet er sundt og er disponeret til at overhead presse så er, der ingen ko på isen.

Men for at besvare dit spørgsmål:

Alm. pres, som du allerede laver. Dumbell presses og bænk pres til forside skulderen. Øvelser, som facepulls, rows, band pull aparts, shrugs til bagsiden. Øvelser, som disse burde dække din skulder udvikling. Det virker for mig og mange andre Og jeg har massive delts. Evt smid nogle lateral raises ind.

[RuneB]

og så blev jeg lige enig med mig selv...og kan give dig ret.. størrelsen er af betydning og den power du kan udvikle til at stabilisere overkroppen er vigtigt... men primært i accelerations fasen.

Edited February 3, 2009 by RuneB