"biomekanik": skuldre ?

[EverLast]

Svært spørgsmål at formulere da jeg vist mangler lidt fagord.

Men er der nogle der ligger inde med illustrationer af naturlige/"lovlige" bevægbaner (note: med balastning) for skulderleddet ?

Eksempelvis siger man at neck pulldown og behind neckpress potientielt kan give skader - og man derfor anbefaler chest pulldown og military - dette har man fundet udaf på en eller anden måde.

Så var det jeg tænkte der måske lå nogle illustrationer eller lignende (gerne links) som gik lidt i dybden og viste hvordan skulderen belastes "sundest" ?

Spørgsmålet går ikke specifikt på de 4 øvelser jeg har nævnt, det jeg søger er et generelt billede af hvordan skulderen virker i praksis, så jeg optimalt kan overføre det til alle øvelser der involverer denne.

Edited September 24, 2004 by EverLast

[mdk]

Alktså billeder af skulderleddet eller hvordan? Den slags findes der et hav af på nettet, det er bare at søge.

Kan du ikke bruge de almindelige råd på området, altså at efterligne skulder/armes naturlige bevægelsesmønstre. Jeg tænker her på at holde vægt så tæt på kroppen som muligt, at lade skulderledet "rotere" (som i military) mere end at blive vredet ud (som i skulderpres), ikke bevæge arme sidelæns over skulderhøjde, arme så vidt muligt ind til siden af kroppen osv.

[ptpoul]

Skulderledet er det mest komplekse led. Især fordi det er så bevægeligt og dets stabilitet er i høj grad sikret af "aktive ligamenter", bedre kendt som rotator cuffen.

Ud over forståelse for leddet rent anatomisk kræver det også en forståelse af fysik.

BO row og bænkpres diskussionen viser også med al tydelighed at der ikke er et nemt emne.

Istedet for at du bruger tid på at absorbere og anvende den viden kunne du også læse en bog hvor den krævede viden er gjort let forståelig: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0...2602624-9695051

Derudover burde alle eje http://www.pensum.dk/prissammenligning.php...077&source=best

Håber det hjælper :) Mvh Poul

[EverLast]

MDK> tak - jeg kan sagtens bruge de råd der allerede findes på området, og det er gode regler du stikker ud der, vil bare gerne lige vide en portion mere om det.

PTpoul:

BO row og bænkpres diskussionen viser også med al tydelighed at der ikke er et nemt emne.

Ja det var faktisk den tråd der satte tankerne igang.

Istedet for at du bruger tid på at absorbere og anvende den viden kunne du også læse en bog hvor den krævede viden er gjort let forståelig: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0...2602624-9695051

Derudover burde alle eje http://www.pensum.dk/prissammenligning.php...077&source=best

Håber det hjælper  Mvh Poul

Tak skal du have, det er lige sådan noget jeg søger - dem vil jeg bestille ! :a-okhand:

[sas]

;)

Edited September 24, 2004 by sas

[sas]

;)

Edited September 24, 2004 by sas

[laraag]

Skal den første af figurene sas har posted, så forstås sådan, at det ikke er fordelagtigt for skulderledet at lave lateral raises eller hur ???

laraag

Edited September 24, 2004 by laraag

[sas]

Skal den første af figurene sas har posted, så forstås sådan, at det ikke er fordelagtigt for skulderledet at lave lateral raises eller hur ???

laraag

Næ, det skulle man gerne kunne uden de store problemer hvis man har midten af skulderen som omdrejningspunkt ;)

Har lige korrigeret billedet - måske hovedet gav anledning til mis-forståelse..

Grøn - "safe-zone"

Gul zone - Helt Ok sålænge der ikke eksisterer nogen problemer med skulderen

Rød zone "risikobetonet"

[laraag]

Skal den første af figurene sas har posted, så forstås sådan, at det ikke er fordelagtigt for skulderledet at lave lateral raises eller hur ???

laraag

Næ, det skulle man gerne kunne uden de store problemer hvis man har midten af skulderen som omdrejningspunkt ;)

Det var osse den pointe jeg ville have frem ;)

Men ud over det må jeg nok indrømme at jeg ikke synes at skulderleddet er sådan lige til at gennemskue sådan rent bevægelsesmæssigt. Det kunne være man skulle tage fat i de bøger som ptpoul nævner :)

Edited September 24, 2004 by laraag

[sas]

Men ud over det må jeg nok indrømme at jeg ikke synes at skulderleddet er sådan lige til at gennemskue sådan rent bevægelsesmæssigt. Det kunne være man skulle tage fat i de bøger som ptpoul nævner

Ja, der er rigtigt rigtigt mange stillinger skulderen kan være i.

(OBS på det første billede er skulderen set fra "siden" af B) )

Edited September 24, 2004 by sas

[EverLast]

Sas> på tegning 2 - er det også set fra siden eller hvordan skal den forståes ?

[DonNiklas]

Sas> på tegning 2 - er det også set fra siden eller hvordan skal den forståes ?

Den er jeg også lidt lost i ;)

Niklas

[sas]

Sas> på tegning 2 - er det også set fra siden eller hvordan skal den forståes ?

Den er jeg også lidt lost i ;)

Niklas

Det kan jeg godt forstå ;)

Front mod "skærm" B)

Edited September 25, 2004 by sas

[Jørgen L]

Nogle mennesker kan foretage sig hvad det skal være, uden at skulderen lider under det.

Andre skal bare lave eet løft "forkert", så er den gal.

Men som MDK o.a. ganske rigtigt er inde på, så er der bestemt risikobetonet adfærd:

- Flektion (føre armen lige fremad) med indad roteret overarm. Vend tommelen opad ved flektionsbevægelser.

- Abduktion (føre armen lige ud til siden) over vandret. En træls lidelse kaldes populært "stilladsarbejder skuldre", idet arbejdet for dem indebærer mange tunge løft over hovedhøjde.

- generelt store belastninger i yderpositioner.

Edited September 25, 2004 by Jørgen L

[ptpoul]

Fremragende opsumering Jørgen :D

Der er mange individuelle forskelle! Rigtigt god pointe.

Hér er lidt altrnative re/prehab øvelser fra den gode Mell Siff:

**While there may be the occasional need for isolated rotator cuff training

in rehabilitation or in rare cases where athletes may have some proven

deficiency in some shoulder muscles, there is no real need for this type of

exercise if one is using complex three-dimensional exercises in training.

THE LIMITATIONS OF AN ISOLATIONIST APPROACH

Firstly, since isolated rotator cuff exercises done in the absence of other

shoulder exercises can cause other so-called 'functional' or biomechanical

imbalances, their frequent use may lead to other problems. Remember that

overtraining injuries always tend to be more common in isolated exercises

where deliberate attempts are made to avoid load-sharing by other muscles and

soft tissues.

Although the rotator cuff muscles (supraspinatus, infraspinatus,

subscapularis and teres minor) are important for certain important aspects of

shoulder stabilisation, several other shoulder muscles, such as the deltoids,

the other teres muscles (teres major), the lats and the pecs also play a

vital role in the dynamic stabilisation of the shoulder, as is shown by a

biomechanical or kinesiological analysis of common upper extremity movements.

One example of shoulder exercises which offer integrated rotator cuff,

deltoid, bicep, latissimus and pectoralis movement are full range cable

crossovers (facing the cable machine) and reverse cable-crossovers (back

towards the hi-lo pulley machine), performed in a complex with one another.

The movements should begin at one extreme end and end at the opposite extreme

end, including marked trunk extension and flexion, as well as arms crossing

in front of the body.

EXECUTION OF SPECIAL CROSSOVERS

Forward Crossovers:

Here one uses the high or "hi" setting of a hi-lo cable machine with your

back towards the machine. The form of these forward cable crossovers differs

from normal crossovers in that one begins in a fully stretched

("prestretched") position with arms pulled way back (externally rotated) and

trunk extended backwards with wrists and head cocked backwards. The movement

progresses with the arms pulling diagonally across the body as in

conventional crossovers and the head, wrists, trunk and hips gradually

flexing forwards. The movement continues until one is completely crunched

over in something like the curled-up foetal position with trunk, hips, neck

and wrists fully flexed, and the arms (internally rotated) crossed tightly

across the front of the body.

Reverse Crossovers:

Here you use the low setting of the hi-lo cable machine, with your back

towards the machine. You begin with the posture that you ended with above

(fully curled-up foteal position) and then gradually extend the whole body,

including hips, trunk, neck, hips and wrists until you end up with arms

uncrossed and outstretched to the sides as they were at the beginning of the

forward crossovers described above.

In both of the above crossover variants, you keep your arms as straight as

possible throughout the movement, but, if that is not possible, you may flex

the elbows during strategic phases to facilitate the action, thereby

implementing some of the variations that are actually used in PNF (these are

illustrated in Fig 7.3 - 7.5 in the latest edition of "Supertraining"). I

have a few other variants of cable crossovers that one can use for rotator

cuff conditioning, but these two variants will suffice to illustrate how

physiotherapeutic PNF may be adapted for use in the gym. Those who attend my

Supertraining Camps are given extensive practical input on PNF methods so

that they can apply upper and lower body patterns for many different

training, flexibility and restorative purposes. Frequent demands for further

information on applied PNF is the specific reason why I added a whole chapter

on this topic to the latest edition of "Supertraining".

APPLIED PNF

As a matter of fact, any physical therapist reading this will immediately

recognise these cross-over movements as ones which are basically the same as

the PNF (Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation) patterns which PTs are

taught for shoulder rehabilitation, anyway. Therefore, it has always

surprised me that so many PTs prescribe isolated rotator cuff exercises when

these PNF patterns (and their three variations on each basic theme) actually

contain these isolated exercises (performed in integrated, carefully

orchestrated patterns), and even add a far more 'functional' neuromuscular

dimension to the action.

After all, isolated rotator cuff exercises do not adequately address the

neural control mechanisms involved in full action of the shoulder complex in

any sport, so that it is highly desirable that an isolationist approach be

reserved only for genuine pathologies and even then, abandoned as soon as

greater shoulder functionality improves. For a summary of what PNF is and

how it may be used in the sports training world, see Ch 7 of "Supertraining."

AN INTEGRATED APPROACH

Snatch-grip overhead squats and snatch pull-throughs from different starting

positions above the floor also offer dynamic and static strengthening of

rotator cuff and other shoulder strengthening exercises, as do controlled

overhead presses, push presses and push jerks, all performed at different

stages of shoulder strengthening according to individual capabilities.

Thus, I prefer to think of rotator cuff exercises as part of an entire static

and dynamic shoulder strengthening process and not as constituting a

conditioning regime on their own. This involves the interactive use of

several exercises, including forms of snatching and pressing (standing,

bench, declined and inclined), rowing, lat pulldowns, snatch and clean pulls,

push presses or jerks, cable crossovers and bent-arm pullovers.

If any training program includes these types of multi-joint exercise

prescribed in a carefully individualised fashion to suit the individual at

any given time, then there is no real need for any isolated rotator cuff

exercises. Interestingly, I have worked with many thousands of athletes and

casual gym users and never had a single one experience any seriously

debilitating rotator cuff injury, despite there having been many throwers,

gymnasts, rowers, rugby players, tennis players, cricketers and lifters among

them.

That is no great tribute to any single one of us involved in their training -

it is just that their programs have been multi-faceted enough to offer

adequate strengthening of the most important muscles needed in those

athlete's lives. Of course, I should mention that this also has a great

deal to do with the fact that individualised correctness of technique was

constantly taught and stressed.

As I have pointed out before, rotator cuff injuries are not necessarily a

consequence of rotator cuff muscle weaknesses or imbalances, but often due to

defective technique and timing of the production of force over the range of

movement. Quite simply, if your shoulder musculature is fit to execute a

given task to a given level in a given way, then any deviation from these

familiar conditions may result in injury. No amount of rotator cuff muscle

strength is going to prevent shoulder injuries caused by poor technique,

overtraining or stupidity.

Dr Mel C Siff

Denver, USA

[Baggårdspumaen]

Man skal generelt huske at tage skuldrens bunde rotationer med i betragtningen når man kigger på bevægelser for skulderen. f.eks. som jørgen tidligere har skrevet, når man skal fuld fleksion ( over vandret) skal huske at vende tomlen opad, da dette er med til at sikre at skulderen kan foretage sin bundne lat. rotation. Til sammenligning kan jeg fortælle at der i fuld abduktion sker en bunden med. rotation :)

[EverLast]

når man skal fuld fleksion ( over vandret) skal huske at vende tomlen opad, da dette er med til at sikre at skulderen kan foretage sin bundne lat. rotation.

Konflikter dette med at man normalt siger at man skal have tommelfingeren til at pege nedaf i lateral side raises ?

[Baggårdspumaen]

når man skal fuld fleksion ( over vandret) skal huske at vende tomlen opad, da dette er med til at sikre at skulderen kan foretage sin bundne lat. rotation.

Konflikter dette med at man normalt siger at man skal have tommelfingeren til at pege nedaf i lateral side raises ?

Kommer an på hvordan du kører side lats. hvis du kun kører til 90 grader er det ikke noget problem