ptpoul Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Mell Siff ved ting..Ud fra alle de spørgsmål om bænk og biceps burde denne post være en sticky..God læsning :)Is There A Biceps Curl?The apparently simple biceps curl, although one of the trademarks ofbodybuilding, remains poorly understood by gymnasium users and scientistsalike. Even EMG (electromyographic) studies have proved notoriouslycontradictory during attempts to ascertain exactly which arm muscles areinvolved at a specific instant during elbow flexion.Elbow flexion is produced by the cooperative action of the biceps brachii,brachialis and brachioradialis. Of these, the biceps cross the shoulder andthe elbow joints, whereas the other two flexors act strictly on the elbow.Thus, if strict arm flexion is to take place, there must be no movement aboutthe shoulder joint. This fact is well known to bodybuilders who execute thecurl with elbows dug into the sides of the trunk or with the back leaningfirmly against a wall.Several basic factors profoundly effect which elbow flexors become involvedin any type of forearm curl:- orientation of hand (pronated, supinated or neutral)- the intensity of resistance to movement- speed of movement- degree of shoulder extension/flexion- degree of shoulder abduction.A detailed EMG study of elbow flexion performed with variations of thesefactors was carried out by Basmajian (Muscles Alive, 1978). His timeanalysis of activity revealed that there is a completely random sequence ofappearance and disappearance of activity in the different elbow flexors ofhis subjects. In any sample of subjects, there appears to be no predictablepattern among the muscles for activating, sustaining and terminatingflexion.Moreover, muscles which display the greatest activity in individual subjectsonly begin the movement first and end it last. He concluded that there is afine interplay between the biceps, brachialis and brachioradialis throughoutelbow flexion, so that it is inappropriate to identify a specific muscle asplaying a specific role at any given instant. Most remarkable was the widevariation in the response produced by a given muscle. Although a generaltrend may be described, the same type or sequence of activity rarely occursin different subjects.The long head of the biceps (whose tendon passes through the shoulder jointcapsule) shows more activity than the short head in most subjects during slowelbow flexion, during supination of the hand against resistance, and duringshoulder flexion. There is little difference in electrical activity betweenthe two heads of the biceps during isometric contraction or during eccentricelbow extension. These observations are directly relevant to the bodybuilderwho wishes to exercise a specific head of the biceps more strongly.Miwa and Matoba (quoted by Basmajian) found that, during slow elbow flexion,biceps brachii is much more active electrically at certain angles of flexion.Unlike the variation of isometric force with angle, the EMG reveals peakactivity at 160 degrees, almost nil at 90 degrees (surprisingly, whereisometric force is near a maximum), and strong activity at full flexion(where isometric force is relatively low). Clearly, much still has to belearned about the interaction between the nervous and muscular systems.Biceps brachii is usually active during flexion of the supinated forearm forall intensities of loading and during flexion of the semi-prone forearmagainst resistance (as with 'hammer curls'). However, if the forearm isprone (as with reverse grip curls), the biceps play a minimal role duringconcentric and eccentric elbow flexion. This finding directly contradictsthe traditional belief among bodybuilders that the biceps continue to play amajor role during all forms of elbow flexion. It is brachialis whichdisplays this prominence, since it is active during fast and slow elbowflexion with forearm prone, semi-prone or supinated at all intensities ofloading. It appears that brachialis contributes to all variations of elbowflexion, since its line of pull does not change with pronation or supination.This fact reveals that the term 'biceps curl' should be eliminated from theexercise manuals and be replaced by the more accurate term 'arm curls' or'elbow flexions'.Brachioradialis does not play any significant role during any form of elbowflexion without a weight, although it becomes much more strongly involved during rapid flexion and extension with the forearm in all three positions ofrotation. This muscle, therefore, is seen to act as assistant mover whenrapid or strongly resisted flexion occurs.All three elbow flexors contract strongly when a resistance is overcomeduring flexion of the semi-prone forearm. Basmajian describes the semi-proneorientation of the forearm as the natural position, the position of rest andthe position of greatest mechanical advantage for most functions of the upperlimb. In other words, the hammer curl, with palms facing the sides of thebody, rather than the supinated (palms up) curl, should be regarded as thefundamental type of arm curl.Another interesting finding is that the triceps - traditionally regarded asonly an extensor of the elbow - is strongly active during pulling movements(such as seated rowing) with the elbow flexed. The biceps are powerfullyinvolved while the elbow is close to full extension, but the tricepscontribute as the angle of flexion increases, undoubtedly since the shoulderis extended backwards, thereby making use of the long head of the triceps asa shoulder extensor.The apparently simple act of elbow flexion, often regarded as synonymouswith the so-called biceps curl, displays subtle nuances of functionalanatomy which have eluded much of the fitness community for many years. Agreater appreciation of the richness of all variations of elbow flexion wouldcontribute significantly to the implementation of more effective normal andrehabilitative training.---------------------Dr Mel C SiffDenver, USAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/Supertraining/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anders Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Nu er jeg ikke lige den skarpeste til engelsk, så er der ikke nogen der evt. gider at gi' et ultrakort resumé af teksten - på dansk!? Det ville bare være forrygende! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hr Henning Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 ser også gerne at en oversætter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGV Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 the hammer curl, with palms facing the sides of thebody, rather than the supinated (palms up) curl, should be regarded as thefundamental type of arm curl.Det ku' godt være man skulle begynde at køre noget hammer curls :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overarmen2000 Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Hvordan skal det tolkes er det ikke sådan hammer curls normalt bliver udført oder was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexipecs Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Meget sjov/interessant artikel ;)For at give en kort opridsning, så drejer det sig om biceps curl - altså selve bevægelsen og hvilke muskler bevægelsen rent faktisk aktiverer, og hvordan/hvornår den bedst gør det.Albueledet har de 3 muskler biceps brachii, brachialis og brachioradialis forbundet. Alle 3 muskler aktiveres ved en curl bevægelse; men undersøgelsen viser, at det er meget forskelligt hvornår og hvordan de aktiveres hver for sig og sammen.Forskellene kan komme af:Hændernes posotion, bevægelsens hastighed, hvor meget albue en foldet sammen (flexed) og fysisk modstand (vægt).Fx. blev det påvist, at biceps brachii havde vidt forskellig aktivitetsniveau ifølge EMG målinger alt efter vinklen på armen (altså hvor sammenfoldet albuen var). Ved en 160 graders vinkel var der aller størst aktivitet, hvorimod der ved en 90 graders vinkel næsten ingen aktivitet var (hvilket man jo burde tro var anderledes ). Ligeledes var der stor aktivitet når albuen var helt 'foldet' sammen.Biceps brachii er aktiv når der curles med håndfladerne opad eller med håndfladerne indad (hammer curl bevægelse); men der er næsten ingen biceps aktivitet når der curles med håndryggen opad (reverse curls) - her er det brachialis der tager over. Brachialis involveres faktisk ved alle typer curls og ved enhver hastighed og ved enhver modstand.Brachioradialis derimod bliver kun aktiveret ved enten hurtige albue foldninger eller hvis der er tung fysisk modstand.Til gengæld bruges alle 3 muskler hvis der bruges hammer curl bevægelsen med vægt/modstand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Freeze Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 (edited) Mel Siff stiller spørgsmålet om der findes noget der hedder biceps curl. Fordi han mener det burde hedde arm curl istedet, da der er flere muskler der er involveret end bare biceps. Han gennemgår de muskler der påvirker bøjning af armen og hvilke muskler der påvirkes alt efter hvordan håndfladen vender. Han konkluderer at hammer curl er burde være fundamentet for ens overarmstræning og at bodybuildere bør indse at de skal inkludere flere variationer i deres overarms træning end bare den traditionelle "biceps curl", da der er meget mere at hente. Det er artiklen kogt ned til et par linier. I andre skal være velkomne til at tilføje.Edit- Der var jeg vist lidt for langsom ;) Edited August 26, 2004 by Mr.Freeze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overarmen2000 Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 Ok så det mest effektive ville være forskellige hammer curl varianter og er der andre ting han ellers foreslår. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chono Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 (edited) Ville mene brachioradialis bliver aktiveret i højere grad ved alm dumbell curls, end hammer curls, da wrist er låst i hammer curl ??"Seated Alternating Incline Dumbell Curl", is your friend ;-) Edited September 2, 2004 by chono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptpoul Posted August 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 Ville mene brachioradialis bliver aktiveret i højere grad ved alm dumbell curls, end hammer curls, da wrist er låst i hammer curl ??Brachioradialis does not play any significant role during any form of elbowflexion without a weight, although it becomes much more strongly involved during rapid flexion and extension with the forearm in all three positions ofrotation. This muscle, therefore, is seen to act as assistant mover whenrapid or strongly resisted flexion occurs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizz Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 (edited) ... Edited December 4, 2011 by wizz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kajakroer Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 Her er en oversigt over MRI målinger af forskellige bicepsøvelser. MRI Æhh - hvad er det nu lige en MRI-måling er...? - Kajakroer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptpoul Posted September 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 Magnetic Resonance Imaging.Er så vidt jeg forstår baseret på blodgennemstrømningen i de pågældende muskler efter udført øvelse?Dvs. de muskler der har arbejdet hårdere => højere blodgennemstrømning af blod efterfølgende => kan måles via magnetisk resonans billeder.Tror jeg nok :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chono Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 (edited) PtPoul: du skriver: Brachioradialis does not play any significant role during any form of elbow flexion without a weight, although it becomes much more strongly involved during rapid flexion and extension with the forearm in all three positions of rotation.This muscle, therefore, is seen to act as assistant mover whenrapid or strongly resisted flexion occurs.Din citering skriver : Brachioradialis does not play any significant role during any form of elbow flexion without a weight...men hvad med vægt på ? For hvis du tager alm dumbell curls, bruger du jo brachioradialis til at holde håndledet låst..så det må da være indvolveret i øvelsen ? Edited September 2, 2004 by chono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stryger2 Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 Her er en oversigt over MRI målinger af forskellige bicepsøvelser. MRI Passer egentlig meget godt med mine egne erfaringer. Oversigten viser at stående bicepsøvelser ser ud til at være lidt mere effektive, og jeg har kun haft fremgang siden jeg droppede isolerede bicepsøvelser til fordel for tung stående curls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptpoul Posted September 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 (edited) Most remarkable was the widevariation in the response produced by a given muscle. Although a generaltrend may be described, the same type or sequence of activity rarely occursin different subjects.In any sample of subjects, there appears to be no predictablepattern among the muscles for activating, sustaining and terminatingflexion.Dvs. der er stor variabilitet fra det ene menneske til det andet.more strongly involved during rapid flexion and extension with the forearm in all three positions of rotationDvs. i alle tre positioner er brachiorradialis aktiv ved hurtige/kraftfulde bevægelser.For hvis du tager alm dumbell curls, bruger du jo brachioradialis til at holde håndledet låst..så det må da være indvolveret i øvelsen ?Det syntes du så.. Det kan være det er sådan for dig (læs citaterne om den store variabilitet). Men det er ikke noget der er fundet, i de undersøgelser der beskrives hér.Det passer udemærket på en anden undersøgelse, jeg læste vedrørende regionær hypertrofi af triceps.Dér var belastningen afgørende for, hvilken del af triceps der voksede mest.Dette review viser med al tydelighed at gammeldags forestillinger om at håndposition/kropsstilling er den eneste faktor, der skal tages højde for, hvis en enkelt muskel i en muskelgruppe skal prioriteres frem for en anden ikke holder vand.Faktorer så som tempo og load er meget vigtige.Så at sige at dumbell curls involverer brachiorradialis i højere grad, er en stor oversimplificering.Den almindelige antagelse er at brachiorradialis' funktion er albuefleksion og sekundært at trække hånden mod neutral (tommelen op efter) fra en henholdsvis proneret/supineret tilstand. Dette ser ud til at være en simplificering -eller måske decideret ukorrekt.Ud fra disse resultater må det konkluderes at den er en accesorisk flexor der primært aktiveres ved høj spændinger/hurtige bevægelser.Mvh Poul Edited September 2, 2004 by ptpoul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Slettet bruger Posted August 4, 2005 Report Share Posted August 4, 2005 poul> træning af mine biceps foregår således:4-5 sæt af smalt underhåndsgreb chins (med fokus på at trække med biceps...) 3-4 sæt af 8-10 semi-slow reps hammercurls...- Hvordan ved jeg om dette er tilstrækkelig træning af biceps (med udgangspunkt i massetræning)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.