ALA

[BigB]

Hey er der noget der ved hvad forskellen er på s-ALA og r-ALA er? og hvilken betydning har det på effekten?

[Luciferase]

Puha det er ikke helt nemt at forklare......

Det er præcist det samme stof på nær en vigtig detalje. Den detalje skal jeg forsøge at forklare (lidt forenklet).

Karbon-atomer kan have 4 bindinger. Disse 4 bindinger kan være alt muligt. Hvis du forestiller dig en kugle som der kan sidde 4 forskellige ting på vil R og S opstå når du bytter om på to af disse. Derved har du stadigvæk de samme ting der binder til atomet men de er bundet på forskellige måder.

Og nu til det lidt mere interessante........

Mange former for medicin har disse karakteristika, og det lidt underlige er, at kun den ene virker positivt, mens den anden enten kan være fuldstændig ubrugelig eller direkte skadelig. På samme måde findes ALA i to former det er dannet fuldstændigt ens, men den lille forskel er meget vigtig. Jeg ved at i flere processer er R-ALA (også nogle gange kendt som +-ALA) det stof som har den positive indvirkning på kroppen. Jeg kan godt se om jeg kan finde lidt letlæseligt litteratur til dig på nettet hvis du kunne tænke dig at vide mere........

Hvor har du det iøvrigt fra??.......jeg går ud fra der er et eller andet kosttilskud.

Hvis der er noget du iøvrigt ikke forstår spørger du bare.....så må vi se om jeg kan forklare det lidt bedre... :)

[Pumba]

Her er r-ala og s-ala testet imod hinanden.

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A Blood glucose Analysis of R-ALA and racemic ALA

The latest controversial topic surrounding Alpha-lipoic Acid is the potency of the two known variants. This pertains to the newest variant; R-ALA, in comparison to racemic(or normal) ALA. This latter racemic ALA is a combination of R-ALA and S-ALA, normally found in a 50/50 split in common brand name ALA supplements.

In order to uncover which of the two was truly the better one, I decided to measure each ALA’s impact on blood glucose for a specific meal, and compare the

results. As we all pretty much know by now, ALA increases the ability of the body to store glucose in the form of glycogen and also oxidize un-needed glucose for energy. So in effect, whichever one of the two versions of ALA in my experiment gave the smallest blood glucose reading after a specific meal, was, the one which gave the user the best results in regards to glucose disposal and glucose up-take into the muscles. Fairly simple concept.

I bought 300 100mg R-ALA caps from AF(www.anabolicfitness.net) and 2000 100mg caps from Kilosports (www.kilosports.com).

These are the respective LOT numbers

AF: Lot # C06310 Exp: 06/04 (all three bottles)

Kilosports: Lot # C07351 (Both bottles)

What the analysis entailed involved performing a comparative experiment regarding the impact of a specific meal + different quantities of R-ALA and racemic ALA over a week. This latter time-frame would I believe be sufficient to factor out any inconsistencies, and also be a long enough time period to give an objective enough frame of reference in regards to the performance of both versions of ALA.

I performed my experiment with my blood glucose meter (Glucometer) called Gluco-trend 2 with the Softclix system. The serial number of my Glucotrend 2 is GH02114809 and the type number is: 1861964 .

I also purchased a separate glucometer at CVS to back-up the results obtained by my Glucotrend 2 blood glucose monitor. If at any time during my experiment, the values of the CVS blood glucose monitor and those of my Glucotrend 2 blood glucose monitor, were off by more than 10% I’d nullify the specific

attempt at measuring the BG response by the given meal. This was not nice for my fingers. Having to use the lancet 10+ times/day hurt like hell….. Anyways,

The serial number of my CVS BG monitor is: 6429796 ,and the lot number of my glucose testing strips was: EB271A1 Exp: 23/ Jan/03

All measurements were done in the AM and/or anytime I hadn’t eaten for 12hrs, as there is NO FOOD present in the stomach after 12hrs, liver glycogen is empty, and BG levels are lowest. This is the BEST time to measure blood glucose fluctuations.

In fact, the GTT test is best performed in the AM on an empty stomach(Ask your doctor, he will verify this) (GTT=Glucose Tolerance test). Values for the blood glucose will be given according to the American system: i.e. mg/dl .

This is the structure of each daily measurement.

Meal (N) N = 1,2,3……..21

1. Take initial BG(Blood glucose) measurement

2. Consume a SPECIFIC food.

(I'll give the exact macro-nutrients)

3. Take the R-ALA or racemic ALA( X number of mg)

4. and 5 and 6. Measure BG(Blood Glucose) levels at the 1 hr, 2hr, and 3hr mark.

So, an example with numbers would be:

Meal 20 400mg ALA + complex(Slow GI) Carbs

Meal: 340 1g 34g 50g (1.0L milk)

BG(Initial): 72mg/dl (Blood glucose reading at the time of eating)

BG(T+1): 99mg/dl (Blood glucose reading after 1hr)

BG(T+2): 93mg/dl (Blood glucose reading after 2hrs)

BG(T+3): 80mg/dl (Blood glucose reading after 3hrs)

(THE ABOVE IS JUST AN EXAMPLE). The numbers are completely fictitious.

My statistics(Body composition), in case anybody is wondering are 190lbs at roughly 9%, at a height of 5“9(174cms). I am a 23 y.o. white male. My diet during this past week was composed of 3000Kcal/day, on a rough 60% Carbs, 30% protein, 10% fat diet. In other words a typical high-carb maintenance diet for me.

Ok, now that the structure of the experiment has been explained, let us proceed on wards to the actual testing.

Blood Glucose Values:

Meal 1: 400mg ALA + complex carbs

Meal: 720 9g 36g 108g (21.0)

BG(Initial): 66 mg/dl

BG(T+1): 92 mg/dl (+26… +39.4%)

BG(T+2): 86 mg/dl(+20…..+30.3%)

BG(T+3): 86mg/dl(+20…….+30.3%)

Meal 2: 400 mg R-ALA + Complex Carbs

Meal: 720 9g 36g 108g (21.0g)

BG(Initial): 74 mg/dl

BG(T+1): 94 mg/dl(+20……….27.03%)

BG(T+2): 84 mg/dl(+10……….+13.51%

BG(T+3): 80 mg/dl(+6………+8.11%)

Meal 3: 600 mg ALA + Complex Carbs

Meal: 720 9g 36g 108g (21.0g)

BG(Initial): 66 mg/dl

BG(T+1): 104 mg/dl(+38………+ 57.58%)

BG(T+2): 72 mg/dl(+6……….+ 8.33%)

BG(T+3): 70mg/dl(+4…………+ 6.06%)

Meal 4: 600 mg R-ALA + Complex Carbs

Meal: 720 9g 36g 108g (21.0g)

BG(Initial): 83 mg/dl

BG(T+1): 100 mg/dl(+17…..+20.48%)

BG(T+2): 94 mg/dl(+9…..+10.84%)

BG(T+3): 88 mg/dl(+5……+6.02%)

Meal 5: 800 mg ALA + Complex Carbs

Meal: 720 9g 36g 108g (21.0g)

BG(Initial): 80 mg/dl

BG(T+1): 103 mg/dl(+23………+22.33%)

BG(T+2): 92 mg/dl(+12…………+15%)

BG(T+3): 90 mg/dl(+10………..+5.56%).

Meal 6: 800 mg R-ALA + Complex Carbs

Meal: 720 9g 36g 108g (21.0g)

BG(Initial): 80mg/dl

BG(T+1): 100 mg/dl(+20……….+25%)

BG(T+2): 90 mg/dl(+7…………+8.75%)

BG(T+3): 82 mg/dl(+2…………+2.5%

Meal 7: 1000mg ALA + Complex carbs

Meal: 720 9g 36g 108g (21.0g)

BG(Initial): 71mg/dl

BG(T+1): 90mg/dl(+19…..+ 26.76%)

BG(T+2): 86mg/dl(+15…..+21.1%)

BG(T+3): 72mg/dl(+1….. +1.4%)

(Meals 8,9,10)HIGH DOSE-HI CARB MEALS

(2000mg R-ALA,2000-3000mg ALA):

Meal : 1440Kcal 0g Fat 48g Prot 288g Carbs (Simple/Complex)

2000mgs R-ALA:

BG(Initial): 77 mg/dl

BG(T+1): 97 mg/dl(+20……..+25.98%)

BG(T+2): 118 mg/dl(+41…….+53.25%)

BG(T+3): 94 mg/dl(+17…….+22.08%)

2000mgs ALA:

BG(Initial): 70 mg/dl

BG(T+1): 95 mg/dl(+25….+35.7%)

BG(T+2): 123 mg/dl(+53…….+75.71%)

BG(T+3): 95 mg/dl(+25…… +35.7%)

3000mgs ALA:

BG(Initial): 65 mg/dl

BG(T+1): 85 mg/dl(+20…….+30.77%)

BG(T+2): 110 mg/dl(+45…… + 69.23%)

BG(T+3): 78 mg/dl(+13…….+ 20.00%)

ANALISIS OF DATA

COMPLEX CARB ANALYSIS: (Carbs = 108g)

400mg ALA+R-ALA:

(Area under curve ALA): 0.5(1)(26)+20(1)+(0.5)(6)+20 = 56 units squared.

(Area under curve R-ALA): 10 + 5 + 10 + 2 + 6 = 33 units squared.

600mg ALA+R-ALA:

(Area under curve ALA): 19 + 6 + 16 + 4 + 1 = 46 units squared

(Area under curve R-ALA): 8.5 + 3 + 11 + 3 + 5 = 30.5 units squared

800mg ALA+R-ALA:

(Area under curve ALA): 0.5(1)(23)+(0.5)(11)+1(12)+ 11 = 40 units squared.

(Area under curve R-ALA): 10 + 10 + 5 + 1 + 4 = 30 units squared

1000mg ALA:

(Area under curve): 0.5(1)(19)+15+2+2+0.5(14)= 35.5 units squared

HI-CARB ANALYSIS ( Carbs = 280g)

2000mg R-ALA:

(Area under the curve): 10 + 9.5 + 20 +12 + 17 = 68.5 units squared

2000mg ALA:

(Area under the curve): 12.5 + 50 + 28 = 90.5 units squared

3000mg ALA:

(Area under the curve): 10 + 20 + 12.5 + 16 + 13 = 71.5 units squared

EXTRAPOLATED DOSAGE ERQUIREMENTS OF ALA AND R-ALA

Carbs= 108g(All meals where exactly the same)

ALA = 400mg, Area = 56 units squared(Take as initial)

ALA = 600mg, Area = 46 units squared(Difference: -10 units squared(17.86%))

ALA = 800mg, Area = 40 units squared(Difference: -16 units squared(28.57%))

ALA = 1000mg, Area = 35.5 units squared(Difference: -20.5 units squared(36.61%))

R-ALA=400mg, Area = 33 units squared

R-ALA=600mg, Area = 30.5 units squared(Difference: -2.5 units squared(7.58%))

R-ALA=800mg, Area = 30 units squared(Difference: -3 units squared(9.09%)

From the above table, one can see that as ALA intake is increased for the given meal

(Containing 108g carbs as specified), the area under the blood glucose curve decreases. This is indicative of the extra ALA having an effect on glucose up-take and oxidation.

From looking at the table, one can see a pattern; namely, that as the ALA dosage is increased for the particular amount of carbs, the area under the blood glucose gets smaller in SMALLER increments. This is what is referred to as a decreasing

numerical series. Elaborating the series, one can extrapolate the best dosage of racemic ALA per gram of carbohydrates.

Series(1): = 56……..46……..40…….35.5….

Difference: = 10……..6……. 4.5……….……..approaches 0.

From this, we can easily approximate the next difference between areas

to be 2 and then 0.

So, the series becomes:

Series(1): 56(400ALA)…..46(600ALA)…..40(800 ALA)…..35.5(1000ALA)…33.5(1200ALA)…..

So, from this, one can see that the dosage of ALA that would maximize its glucose up-take enhancing effects and glucose disposing effects, while minimizing any over-dosing(The ALA would simply be excreted, with your hard earned money),

would be 1200mg ALA per 108g carbs or 11.11mg ALA/ (g) carbs.

From the table above, one can also see that as the amount of R-ALA is increased in relation to a given specific carb meal(C=108g), the area under curve does indeed gets smaller, but only slightly. One can therefore surmise that over the amount of

400mg per 108g carbs there isn’t really any point in taking more as the area under the blood glucose curve will decrease negligibly, and you’d basically be throwing your R-ALA away. That would put the optimal dosage of

R-ALA per (g) of carbs at 3.70mg R-ALA per gram of carbs.

This makes R-ALA 3X as powerful as racemic ALA if the carb meal <108g (3.7mg/g carbs compared to 11.11mg/g carbs) (Remember carbs < 108g) If you want to nit-pick, yes, you can go as high as 600-800mg of R-ALA per 108g carbs, but you’ll only get a 7.5-9% increase in effectiveness(See the table). Hardly efficient or cost effective if you ask me.

Now, as you may have noticed I have also included a high-carb section w/ ALA and R-ALA. This section was to test if there was an upper limit to ALA’s effectiveness. What I asked myself, was wether there was a physiological point where ALA just stopped working(i.e. Too much glucose entering the blood-stream.).

I’ll re-post the data:

Carbohydrates = 280g(At once)

2000mg R-ALA:

(Area under the curve): 10 + 9.5 + 20 +12 + 17 = 68.5 units squared

2000mg ALA:

(Area under the curve): 12.5 + 50 + 28 = 90.5 units squared

3000mg ALA:

(Area under the curve): 10 + 20 + 12.5 + 16 + 13 = 71.5 units squared

Ok, here is the interesting part……as extrapolated above, R-ALA is about 3X more powerful than ALA at stimulating glucose up-take and disposal FOR A SPECIFIC AMOUNT OF CARBS. Very important this. From the numbers above, one can easily see that 2000mgs R-ALA was about as effective as 3100mg ALA(I extrapolated) in keeping the blood glucose response curve under control, making it only 55% stronger than ALA not 3X stronger.

Interesting. We have just discovered something of importance. R-ALA(And similiarly ALA to a smaller degree) works best if carb intake during the day is comprised of SMALLER carb meals not one big one.

CONCLUSION:

Having completed the experiment I can safely say I think I have the dosages of R-ALA and racemic ALA pretty well figured out. These are: 11.11mg of racemic ALA per gram(g) of carbohydrates, and 3.7mg of R-ALA per gram(g) of carbohydrates; AS LONG AS the carb content of the meal

is kept < 108g. If the carb content of the meal goes beyond 108g the R-ALA loses effectiveness at an ever increasing rate, but still manages to be 55% more effective(mg per mg) than racemic after a single 280g carb load. To use an analogy, R-ALA is like a scalpel while ALA is like a kitchen Knife. They will both work, but for cutting I would go with R-ALA, and

for bulking I’d go with racemic ALA because of the cost.

Fonz

__________________

Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.

--- Fonz 6/2002

[Pumba]

Kort sagt kan man nøjes med 1/3 af mængden hvis man bruger r-ala (ved måltider med under 108 g kulhydrater, eller 2/3 hvis der er flere kulhydrater.

Desværre er r-ala mere end 3x så dyrt som s-ala, nok især fordi der kun sælges et sted fra (i hvert fald i kapsler).

Jeg har ½ kg s-ala liggende som jeg så småt er begyndt at lege med :)

[BigB]

tak for svarene.

Hvor har du det iøvrigt fra??.......jeg går ud fra der er et eller andet kosttilskud.

Hvis der er noget du iøvrigt ikke forstår spørger du bare.....så må vi se om jeg kan forklare det lidt bedre...  

L:

yep, det er et kosttilskud i kapselform og det er r-ALA, som jeg nok kommer til at købe.

Pumba:

Desværre er r-ala mere end 3x så dyrt som s-ala, nok især fordi der kun sælges et sted fra (i hvert fald i kapsler).

ved godt det plejer at være dyrt men har en rimelig billig kilde ca 1,4 kr pr. 500mg kapsel.

[Dines]

Det du har er ikke s-ala men en blanding af r- og s-ala, det han kalder for en racemisk blanding i artiklen.

Prisforskellen skyldes højst sandsynligt, at det er besværligt at adskille de to typer ala.

Er ala lovligt i dk? Og hvis det er, så hvor kan det købes?

[Pumba]

hov...ja det er selvfølgelig en blanding det jeg har....

ala er lovligt i DK.....men det er ALT for dyrt at købe herhjemme, noget der ligner 10x prisen i USA vil jeg skyde på.

BigB>>

Hvis du får det til 1,4 kr pr 500 mg kabsel så tvivler jeg STÆRKT på der er rent r-ala....det er nogenlunde det racemisk blanding koster i USA

[MultiCoach]

ALA er en "glucose-disposal agent" - altså det fjerner glucose fra blodbanen = blodsukkerkontrol!

Men hvordan virker ALA?

Nedenstående studie har undersøgt, hvordan ALA virker (muligvis!):

"Alpha-Lipoic Acid Inhibits Glycogen Synthesis in Rat Soleus Muscle via Its Oxidative Activity and the Uncoupling of Mitochondria". (ALA)

Konklusion: "These data show that in this model, LA acts as a mild prooxidant, causing mitochondrial uncoupling and inhibition of glycogen synthesis. It appears that LA regulates glucose metabolism in the muscle differently than insulin"

Jeg har kun læst abstractet, men sådan som jeg tolker det, så bliver glucosen ikke lagret som glykogen i muskulaturen, men derimod oxideret i mitochondrierne via en "uncoupling" proces. Således fjerner ALA glucose fra blodbanen (godt), men efterfølgende bliver glukosen oxideret via en uncoupling proces (skidt). Derudover virker ALA som en prooxidant (skidt).

Det kunne være interessant at se om det samme gør sig gældende i skeletmuskulatur fra mennesker. Indtil da vil jeg i hvert fald være lidt påpasselig med at bruge ALA i lange perioder ad gangen.

[BigB]

Hvis du får det til 1,4 kr pr 500 mg kabsel så tvivler jeg STÆRKT på der er rent r-ala....det er nogenlunde det racemisk blanding koster i USA

my bad, det har du også ret i det er en blanding jeg køber og ikke rent r-ala.

men tilgængeld har du ikke ret i at:

ala er lovligt i DK.....men det er ALT for dyrt at købe herhjemme, noget der ligner 10x prisen i USA vil jeg skyde på.

ALA er ikke lovligt i DK. du må gerne bestille det hjem til eget brug det er lovligt, men du må ikke sælge det i DK. Så er der så dem der alligevel gør det og hos dem er det som pumba siger ca 10 gange dyrere.

Pumba:

Du har også prøvet clen ik?

vil du mene ALA og Clen kan substituere hinandnen, eller er det 2 forskellige ting? Jeg behøver ikka at have opremset de 2 tilskuds funktioner som svar, jeg tænker derimod på resultatet af deres brug.

[Pumba]

ALA er ikke lovligt i DK. du må gerne bestille det hjem til eget brug det er lovligt, men du må ikke sælge det i DK.

Pumba:

Jeg behøver ikka at have opremset de 2 tilskuds funktioner som svar, jeg tænker derimod på resultatet af deres brug.

Bare for at fluekneppe det.....Jeg sagde at ALA er lovligt i DK hvilket det også er, og jeg sagde også at det var alt for dyrt i DK hvilket det også er......jeg sagde ikke at det var lovligt at sælge i DK :D

Du har også prøvet clen ik?

vil du mene ALA og Clen kan substituere hinandnen, eller er det 2 forskellige ting?

Det er 2 forskellige ting, men jeg tror fint de kan substituere hinanden ;)

Jeg regner med at køre superclen sammen med 3-4 g ala her til vinter sammen med en bulking diæt. JEg tror faktisk det vil være en go combo, men nu må vi se.

[MultiCoach]

Hvis man er ligeglad med at ALA muligvis virker som en pro-oxidant og som en uncoupling-agent, kan det faktisk være et godt supplement i en vægttabssituation.

Ikke nok med at ALA fjerner glucose fra blodbanen, men glucosen bliver faktisk ikke lagret men derimod oxideret i mitochondrierne via en uncoupling process - altså en proces der blot omdanner næringsstoffer til varme!

Til dem der har taget ALA: Har I oplevet en stigning i kropstemperatur efter I har taget en stor dosis ALA?

Jeg har selv oplevet dette når jeg har indtaget et (stort) kulhydratrigt måltid sammen med 600-900m ALA! Jeg troede jeg fik en bedre glukogenopbygning, men måske jeg bare har fyret de ekstra kulhydrater af som varme!

[Pumba]

JEg har oplevet at jeg har følt at jeg har haft det lidt varmere, men har kun taget 400 mg af gangen før, bare lige for at se hvordan jeg reagerede på det.

Men jeg har nu lige taget ca 800 mg sammen med ca 30 g druesukker + kreatin og er nu 5 min efter gået igang med en go protion pasta og tun. Så må jeg lige se om jeg reelt kan mærke en forskel.

[BigB]

pumba eller andre:

tager du ikke taurin iforbindelse med clen? jeg begynder nemlig på clen efter julen og har fået at vide at taurin er et "must" med clen. den skulle være med til at forhindre kramperne osv.

hvis ja, ved du så hvorfra det kan fås biligt i DK?

[Dines]

Multi> Jeg har læst flere steder at ALA er en antioxidant:

"Lipoic acid (aka alpha-lipoic acid, thiotic acid) has been variously called the "universal antioxidant" or the "ideal antioxidant," and with good reason. First, lipoic acid acts as a kind of "wild card" antioxidant. This means that it can substitute for other antioxidants, such as vitamins C or E. So if you're not getting enough of these substances in your diet, lipoic acid supplements can make up at least part of the deficit.

While it acts as a powerful antioxidant in its own right, lipoic acid also plays an important role in controlling blood sugar. Evidence is accumulating rapidly that both of these mechanisms may contribute to preventing many of the serious side effects of diabetes, such as nerve damage, pain, blindness, heart disease, and accelerated aging. It may also repair existing nerve damage by encouraging new nerve sprouting.

Recent studies have demonstrated that lipoic acid can also help improve muscle strength and energy levels, protect extracellular LDL cholesterol and intracellular DNA from damage by free radicals, discourage the formation and growth of cancer cells, and possibly even improve memory.

Lipoic acid is also a talented chelator, capable of removing from the blood stream excess iron and copper as well as toxic molecules of cadmium, lead and mercury."

Har fundet informationen om at ala er en antioxidant flere steder...

[MultiCoach]

Dines> Jeg tror stadigvæk at ALA virker som en anti-oxidant. Som du netop nævner, så er der mange undersøgelser der støtter denne antagelse.

Det studie jeg refererer til viser dog, at intra-mitochondrielt virker ALA som en pro-oxidant (svag) i og med at ALA starter en uncoupling process. Studiet er et in-vitro udført på rotter, så man skal være meget varsom med at overføre resultaterne til mennesker in-vivo. Det kræver selvfølgelig nogle humane studier. Ikke desto mindre syntes jeg det er interessant, at man nu er ved at få klarhed over, hvad der sker med glucosen inde i muskelen.

Det er jo kanon hvis ALA øger glykogensyntesen men knap så kanon hvis det medfører pro-oxidering og uncoupling i for stor udstrækning.