Pyramide træning

[teddy]

Er der lavet nogle undersøgelser eller lign som ligger på nettet der beviser hvorfor det ikk er optimalt for styrke/masse???

[Thomas J]

Er der lavet nogle undersøgelser eller lign som ligger på nettet der beviser hvorfor det ikk er optimalt for styrke/masse???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Man behøver vel ikke undersøgelser som beviser det indlysende. Det er jo pure logik, at det ikke er smart at tappe ATP-reserverne, og trætte nervesystemet, inden man når de tungeste sæt.

[teddy]

Er der lavet nogle undersøgelser eller lign som ligger på nettet der beviser hvorfor det ikk er optimalt for styrke/masse???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Man behøver vel ikke undersøgelser som beviser det indlysende. Det er jo pure logik, at det ikke er smart at tappe ATP-reserverne, og trætte nervesystemet, inden man når de tungeste sæt.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Det mener jeg heller ikk, men har en diskussion med nogle der ikk vil overbevises..

Men kan være jeg bare skal lade det være synd for dem at de lever i fortiden, men er ikk meget for det

[Thomas J]

Altså hvis de ikke er til at rokke efter en god solid videnskabelig forklaring, så er vi jo over i håbløse tilfælde, som det ikke kan betale sig at spilde mere krudt på

[teddy]

Altså hvis de ikke er til at rokke efter en god solid videnskabelig forklaring, så er vi jo over i håbløse tilfælde, som det ikke kan betale sig at spilde mere krudt på 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kom lige forbi "et lorteforum" og forklar det.. hehe

[Thomas J]

Altså hvis de ikke er til at rokke efter en god solid videnskabelig forklaring, så er vi jo over i håbløse tilfælde, som det ikke kan betale sig at spilde mere krudt på 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kom lige forbi "et lorteforum" og forklar det.. hehe

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hvorhenne ??

[teddy]

Altså hvis de ikke er til at rokke efter en god solid videnskabelig forklaring, så er vi jo over i håbløse tilfælde, som det ikke kan betale sig at spilde mere krudt på 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kom lige forbi "et lorteforum" og forklar det.. hehe

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hvorhenne ??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kom bare forbi her men man skal oprettes som bruger og sådan noget fis...

Troede sgu der var nogle med styr på det derinde, men de sidste par dage har jeg læst lidt mere end hvad godt er

[Thomas J]

Fuck da det lorte forum. Nu er min email adresse banned, fordi man tilsyneladende ikke må bruge gratis email accounts

[teddy]

Fuck da det lorte forum. Nu er min email adresse banned, fordi man tilsyneladende ikke må bruge gratis email accounts 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hehe øv, men tak for forsøget..

Du kan låne en af mine adresser

[Thomas J]

Fuck da det lorte forum. Nu er min email adresse banned, fordi man tilsyneladende ikke må bruge gratis email accounts 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hehe øv, men tak for forsøget..

Du kan låne en af mine adresser

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Det kunne da være cool nok. Får lige ryddet op i min inbox, så du kan sende en besked med login og pass. Du må også gerne lige skrive navnet på tråden.

[Trinitrophenol]

Alle aspekter taget i betragtning kunne der være faktorer som modsvarer energi svineriget med pyramide ... ligeledes kommer det jo også an på hensigten med træningen mm. Så jeg kunne oprigtigt godt tænke mig at se dokumentation for og imod .. er det noget der ligges inde med ??

Også, dokumentation / information for statisk træning er meget velkommen :-)

Redigeret!

Og gab, hvor er det dog molbo at oprette bruger på overnævte site

Edited April 1, 2005 by Trinitrophenol

[Thomas J]

Alle aspekter taget i betragtning kunne der være faktorer som modsvarer energi svineriget med pyramide ... ligeledes kommer det jo også an på hensigten med træningen mm. Så jeg kunne oprigtigt godt tænke mig at se dokumentation for og imod .. er det noget der ligges inde med ??

Også, dokumentation / information for statisk træning er meget velkommen :-)

Redigeret!

Og gab, hvor er det dog molbo at oprette bruger på overnævte site 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Du kan sikkert finde masser af dokumentation hvis du gider at lede. Jeg gider ikke lede for dig, så du må igang selv

Indtil videre kan du få lov at læse mit indlæg fra det pågældende forum:

Hi people. I am a friend of Teddy. I usually debate training on danish training forums, but Teddy asked me to take a look at this thread. I know I will proberly seem like an arrogant prick to some people, but I am sad to say that some the things said in this thread are totally incorrect, when you take today´s scientific training knowledge into consideration.

1. Pyramid training

Teddy is right about pyramid training. It IS an archaic way to organize your sets and reps. As Vladimir Zatsiorsky says in his book: "Since 1964, pyramids have been virtually excluded from the training of elite athletes". Basically the russians found out many many years ago that pyramids was NOT an optimal way of organizing the sets and reps. Unfortunately the bodybuilding industry has always lagged behind, when it comes to scientific training. The old myths seem to die hard, and training is only starting to get more scientific with new systems like HST. The russians have used science to their advantage for years, and if we look at the results in strength oriented sports, we can see that it certainly works. But its easy to quote authors, and let them carry your argument for you. Instead I will try to explain why pyramid training is NOT good. Anyone who has just the basic understanding of physiology and how the neuromuscular system works, will understand the points and see that pyramid training is not the way to go.

When you train using pyramids where you start with high reps, and finish with low reps, you deplete your ATP reserves. If you look at it isolated, that wont be a problem if all the sets in a pyramid had the same growth potential, but as we will see soon that just isnt the case. Because we cant ignore the level of conditioning. Whenever you lift a weight, the body will adapt to that weight, and after a short while that weight wont have any growth potential at all, because the muscles have conditioned themselves to that specific tension level. We all know people who look the same year after year, eventhough they train really really hard. Thats because failure sets where you use almost the same weight week after week, wont have a growth potential eventhough the sessions are downright hard. Here the progressive resistance principle rule. Without progession you wont grow. That brings us back to the pyramids. If I start with 15 reps at 200 pounds, and finish with 5 reps at 300 pounds, my muscles will condition themselves to 300 pounds within a few weeks. When that happens, anything below 300 pounds wont cause an adaptive response at all. And thats the core problem with pyramids. Your muscles will condition themselves to the weights at the end of the pyramid, which means that the light weights at the start of the pyramid is just a waste of time. But there is another problem too.

When you do high reps, you fatigue the central- and pheripheral nervous system, and the muscles will produce waste products (which do have a positive effect on the growth potential, through different signaling processes), which make the problem even worse. Because waste products make the neural efficiency worse. So in the end the force development potential is lowered when we come to the heavy sets. If we agree that the heavy weights have the biggest growth potential, then we are in trouble here too. And if we dont agree about that, then you better read on in the next praragraph.

2. High reps vs. low reps

The discussion about what causes hypertrophy the best, people seem to ignore the basics of muscle growth. What is the primary cause of muscle growth ?? ITS TENSION. Every single scientific paper you can find on muscle growth agrees that tension causes intramuscular signaling, which kickstarts the very complicated growth processes. But tension alone cant do it. If tension alone did it, then heavy singles would be the best way to induce hypertrophy. Unfortunately it doesnt work that way. Because the muscles need to be under tension for a prolonged period, to be forced into growth. That is what people call TUT, or Time under Tension. Just how long the muscles need to be under tension, is still being argued, but it is proberly not wise to go under 5 reps. The best hypertrophy rep range is proberly in the range of 5-15 reps. BUT THERE IS NOT A BEST NUMBER OF REPS. It all depends on the level on conditioning. If we look at it isolated, then 5 reps would be the best, as we use the heaviest weights here, and that induces the highest level of tension. But we cant look at it isolated, because we cant train at our 5RM all the time without stagnating. Therefore it would be wise to start at 15 reps, and cycle our training, so that we start light and increase the weight over the weeks, and end on heavy sets of 5 in the last few weeks. Thats exactly how the HST people does it, and it makes a lot of sense, if we look at it scientifically.

3. High reps are more safe than low reps

Thats just not true. If we look at it theoretically, then it has some truth value, because heavy weights will cause more damage than light weight. But in the real world, thats not how things work. When doing high reps, the fatigue level are much higher, and lifting technique is often worsened because of that fatigue. And the number one cause of injuries is bad technique. Another problem is that high reps tend to tire the supporting muscles first. And when the supporting muscles give out, and the big muscles are asking to keep going, then you are asking for trouble.

Oh, and the guy who said he knew a lot of powerlifters and strongmen who used pyramids. I know a lot of bodybuilders from the Mr Olympia who does double split training and uses 5 different exercises for every bodypart. We all know thats a vague argument. You can get the best results in the world with the worst training principles, if you have the right genetics and/or use performance enhancing drugs. Fact is, that no one who has any scientific knowledge about training today, will claim that pyramids are an optimal way to train. Sure, pyramids can work. But there is much, MUCH better ways to organize your training.

Edited April 1, 2005 by Thomas J

[Guest DBM]

Alle aspekter taget i betragtning kunne der være faktorer som modsvarer energi svineriget med pyramide ... ligeledes kommer det jo også an på hensigten med træningen mm. Så jeg kunne oprigtigt godt tænke mig at se dokumentation for og imod .. er det noget der ligges inde med ??

Også, dokumentation / information for statisk træning er meget velkommen :-)

Redigeret!

Og gab, hvor er det dog molbo at oprette bruger på overnævte site 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Du kan sikkert finde masser af dokumentation hvis du gider at lede. Jeg gider ikke lede for dig, så du må igang selv

Indtil videre kan du få lov at læse mit indlæg fra det pågældende forum:

Hi people. I am a friend of Teddy. I usually debate training on danish training forums, but Teddy asked me to take a look at this thread. I know I will proberly seem like an arrogant prick to some people, but I am sad to say that some the things said in this thread are totally incorrect, when you take today´s scientific training knowledge into consideration.

1. Pyramid training

Teddy is right about pyramid training. It IS an archaic way to organize your sets and reps. As Vladimir Zatsiorsky says in his book: "Since 1964, pyramids have been virtually excluded from the training of elite athletes". Basically the russians found out many many years ago that pyramids was NOT an optimal way of organizing the sets and reps. Unfortunately the bodybuilding industry has always lagged behind, when it comes to scientific training. The old myths seem to die hard, and training is only starting to get more scientific with new systems like HST. The russians have used science to their advantage for years, and if we look at the results in strength oriented sports, we can see that it certainly works. But its easy to quote authors, and let them carry your argument for you. Instead I will try to explain why pyramid training is NOT good. Anyone who has just the basic understanding of physiology and how the neuromuscular system works, will understand the points and see that pyramid training is not the way to go.

When you train using pyramids where you start with high reps, and finish with low reps, you deplete your ATP reserves. If you look at it isolated, that wont be a problem if all the sets in a pyramid had the same growth potential, but as we will see soon that just isnt the case. Because we cant ignore the level of conditioning. Whenever you lift a weight, the body will adapt to that weight, and after a short while that weight wont have any growth potential at all, because the muscles have conditioned themselves to that specific tension level. We all know people who look the same year after year, eventhough they train really really hard. Thats because failure sets where you use almost the same weight week after week, wont have a growth potential eventhough the sessions are downright hard. Here the progressive resistance principle rule. Without progession you wont grow. That brings us back to the pyramids. If I start with 15 reps at 200 pounds, and finish with 5 reps at 300 pounds, my muscles will condition themselves to 300 pounds within a few weeks. When that happens, anything below 300 pounds wont cause an adaptive response at all. And thats the core problem with pyramids. Your muscles will condition themselves to the weights at the end of the pyramid, which means that the light weights at the start of the pyramid is just a waste of time. But there is another problem too.

When you do high reps, you fatigue the central- and pheripheral nervous system, and the muscles will produce waste products (which do have a positive effect on the growth potential, through different signaling processes), which make the problem even worse. Because waste products make the neural efficiency worse. So in the end the force development potential is lowered when we come to the heavy sets. If we agree that the heavy weights have the biggest growth potential, then we are in trouble here too. And if we dont agree about that, then you better read on in the next praragraph.

2. High reps vs. low reps

The discussion about what causes hypertrophy the best, people seem to ignore the basics of muscle growth. What is the primary cause of muscle growth ?? ITS TENSION. Every single scientific paper you can find on muscle growth agrees that tension causes intramuscular signaling, which kickstarts the very complicated growth processes. But tension alone cant do it. If tension alone did it, then heavy singles would be the best way to induce hypertrophy. Unfortunately it doesnt work that way. Because the muscles need to be under tension for a prolonged period, to be forced into growth. That is what people call TUT, or Time under Tension. Just how long the muscles need to be under tension, is still be argued, but it is proberly not wise to go under 5 reps. The best hypertrophy rep range is proberly in the range of 5-15 reps. BUT THERE IS NOT A BEST NUMBER OF REPS. It all depens on the level on conditioning. If we look at it isolated, then 5 reps would be the best, as we use the heaviest weights here, and that induces the highest level of tension. But we cant look at it isolated, because we cant train at our 5RM all the time without stagnating. Therefore it would be wise to start at 15 reps, and cycle our training, so that we start light and increase the weight over the weeks, and end on heavy sets of 5 in the last few weeks. Thats exactly how the HST people does it, and it makes a lot of sense, if we look at it scientifically.

3. High reps are more safe than low reps

Thats just not true. If we look at it theoretically, then it has some truth value, because heavy weights will cause more damage than light weight. But in the real world, thats not how things work. When doing high reps, the fatigue level are much higher, and lifting technique is often worsened because of that fatigue. And the number one cause of injuries is bad technique. Another problem is that high reps tend to tire the supporting muscles first. And when the supporting muscles give out, and the big muscles are asking to keep going, then you are asking for trouble.

Oh, and the guy who said he knew a lot of powerlifters and strongmen who used pyramids. I know a lot of bodybuilders from the Mr Olympia who does double split training and uses 5 different exercises for every bodypart. We all know thats a vague argument. You can get the best results in the world with the worst training principles, if you have the right genetics and/or use performance enhancing drugs. Fact is, that no one who has any scientific knowledge about training today, will claim that pyramids are an optimal way to train. Sure, pyramids can work. But there is much, MUCH better ways to organize your training.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Respekt fordi du altid bliver ved, Thomas :4thumbup:

[Thomas J]

WTF Det ser ud som om at mit indlæg er blevet slettet på det pågældende forum. Eller også har jeg ikke postet ordentligt ???

[Thomas J]

Nå, nu har jeg postet det igen. Så må vi se hvad der sker

[Rommel]

Var det en tekst du havde liggende i forvejen? Ellers tager jeg sku hatten ekstra meget af for den energi du ligger for dagen.....

Rommel

[Thomas J]

Nej, jeg havde den ikke liggende i forvejen, men jeg havde skrevet den i word, da jeg har bitter erfaring med at skrive lange indlæg, og så miste det når man skal poste.

Men tilsyneladende er indlægget blevet slettet igen

Edited April 1, 2005 by Thomas J

[teddy]

Det ligger der da nu. men syntes som jeg også skrev i pm at det er et kanon indlæg og tager hatten af for dig at du gad. Havde nu ikk reget med det

[Thomas J]

Det ligger der da nu. men syntes som jeg også skrev i pm at det er et kanon indlæg og tager hatten af for dig at du gad. Havde nu ikk reget med det

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, men det er også 2. gange jeg re-poster

[Thomas J]

Hvad fanden sker der Teddy ?? Nu er det væk igen

[teddy]

Det ligger der da nu. men syntes som jeg også skrev i pm at det er et kanon indlæg og tager hatten af for dig at du gad. Havde nu ikk reget med det

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, men det er også 2. gange jeg re-poster

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

er blevet slettet igen

og tråden er blevet låst

Edited April 1, 2005 by teddy

[Thomas J]

Teddy> kan du ikke lige chekke om det er væk nu. Hvis det er, så kopier det lige herfra forummet, og post det igen. Jeg er logget ud nu nemlig.

[Guest Slettet bruger]

Det er jo komplet latterligt, sikke en joke af et forum

[Rommel]

Skod side....Det er jo umuligt at blive medlem. Lad dem brænde i helvede med deres pyramide sæt!!

Rommel

[teddy]

det er da det mest latterlige jeg har været udsat for og har ikk engang fået en grund til det...

Vil spamme deres lorteforum til jeg får en forklaring

edit: nu bliver alt hvad jeg poster slettet

Edited April 1, 2005 by teddy